Direct Action. What'd you think?

[FreeYourself]

I have been an activist for a while now and am growing tired of how the media manages to bend the points we are trying show and makes us look like the bad guys? Us, the people who leave whatever we're doing to go out and get hurassed by police and speak for people who don't have a voice (or can't get heard), we come out as the bad guys! Is this justice?!?

An example, I went to the OCAP protest in Toronto, Ontario on October 16th to give voice for all of those homeless people and let the Tories know that they are only making it worse for the people at the bottom of the corporate ladder and we're not gonna stand for it.

This is what the media heard:

"2000 protesters, mostly anarchists with concealed weapons..."
"Thugs came from all over to terrorize this peacefull city..."

I was among 1-2 thousand protesters peacefully marching down the streets chanting and playing drums and dancing. We had signs. A small handfull decided to vandalize and such.

What'd you think about all this? does it help? Do you believe what the corporate media throws at you?

I have one word for you...PROPOGANDA!

[elSicomoro]

It only takes a handful of morons to ruin it for everyone, as evidenced by Seattle and Genoa. The problem in such a situation is that you have so many different groups protesting one thing or another...a lack of true cohesiveness.

[russotto]

Originally posted by sycamore
It only takes a handful of morons to ruin it for everyone, as evidenced by Seattle and Genoa. The problem in such a situation is that you have so many different groups protesting one thing or another...a lack of true cohesiveness.

No point in blaming the morons, though -- if they aren't there of their own accord, the government will provide some, or simply provoke violence on their own.

Though it's interesting that the WTO was driven to Qatar (where protest is strictly forbidden) as a result...

I'm with sycamore on this one. You need to choose with whom you associate. If you have people that are going to vandalize in your group, then they will give your cause a bad name. The rules need to be "if you go against our strict protocol for this protest, you will not be allowed to participate any more". But I guess there will always be assholes to ruin it for everyone...

Remember Gandhi. Model protestor.

[jaguar]

Two issues i guess. First of all if your protesting again'st corperations and corperate meetings iwht national officals such as the WTO of course the corperate media is going to put a bad light on it.

At the same timethat would be harder if it wasnet' for the bored/unemployed/stupid fuckwits who see scrawling anarchy symbols and "class war" on walls and breaking stuff as a political protest.

[FreeYourself]

Jaguar:

"bored/unemployed/stupid "

I would just like to say that i know some smart, well educated, wealthy (you, for some reason, think this matters) people that decide to 'scrawl' on buildings. I also know some very poor people that do as well. maybe the reason the poor people are the ones you see doing this is becuase they are the ones being directly effected by the issues and therefor want a voice. Since the dam media won't listen, they must resort to other means to give a message.

Don't blame the protesters because these are the people that WILL change our economy for the better.

The reason Gandi was so succesful was because he had soo many people with him. In this day and age we don't have the numbers. Nobody cares becasue hey guess what? they are the ones having everything handed to them on a silver platter. Why in the right mind would someone complain about being given the advantage? They would just preffer to turn there back on the silenced parts of the world and instread complain about those dam protesters.

Unrelated Quote: "We kill eachother we call it murder, we kill animals we call it industry. Is this Justice?"

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by FreeYourself
I would just like to say that i know some smart, well educated, wealthy (you, for some reason, think this matters) people that decide to 'scrawl' on buildings. I also know some very poor people that do as well.

And you know what they all have in common? They're all morons. You don't deface property that is not yours. That's just not cool.

Don't blame the protesters because these are the people that WILL change our economy for the better.

Will Rogers said it best--"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Quite frankly, I don't believe there is anything wrong with our economy. Is it a system of haves and have-nots? Sure. I'm on the end of the have-nots. Is it the best of all other alternatives? Most likely. Socialism is nice, but we have too many people here in the US that equate that with a welfare state...or communism...or find it to be an invasion of their personal rights. I feel bad about 3rd world countries...as well we should. I'm going to stop it there b/c Jag will begin to rant about that...and we've already covered that topic.

The reason Gandi was so succesful was because he had soo many people with him. In this day and age we don't have the numbers. Nobody cares becasue hey guess what? they are the ones having everything handed to them on a silver platter. Why in the right mind would someone complain about being given the advantage? They would just preffer to turn there back on the silenced parts of the world and instread complain about those dam protesters.

Gandhi and MLK led nonviolent protests. If there were "unruly" folks during the days of their protests, they were either a) under the radar of the simpler-minded media or b) kept in line by their own. Not to mention, there was more of a common goal--a free India for Gandhi and equal rights for MLK. Where is the common thread among these WTO/IMF/World Bank/G8/target-group-of-the-week protesters? There are a few, but nothing that I would write home to my mom about.

Unrelated Quote: "We kill eachother we call it murder, we kill animals we call it industry. Is this Justice?"

Nope...it's called "Survival of the Fittest." Who knows? Maybe one day, a more advanced species will want to eat us.

[jet_silver]

"I would just like to say that i know some ... people that decide to 'scrawl' on buildings. ... these are the people that WILL change our economy for the better."

If your voice mainly comes from defacing other people's property, I oppose your changing the economy for what YOU consider "the better". The idea that a loud unpleasant noise is worth listening to because it's -your- loud unpleasant noise, is absurd.

This is the reason there was a property qualification for voting in the US at the time of the Revolution. Jacksonian policies IIRC are the ones that gave us universal suffrage. I like the idea that you're a -stakeholder- before you get to vote. That way, you respect the stakes of others, and don't just vote for a living when you're not making a mess.

Originally posted by FreeYourself
The reason Gandi was so succesful was because he had soo many people with him. In this day and age we don't have the numbers. Nobody cares becasue hey guess what? they are the ones having everything handed to them on a silver platter. Why in the right mind would someone complain about being given the advantage? They would just preffer to turn there back on the silenced parts of the world and instread complain about those dam protesters.

Dude. I don't know what part of the world you're in, but everyone I know has to work their fucking asses off to get what they have. I just got an Xbox yesterday. New toy. Couple days of work to buy that and the shit I got with it. Couple days of getting up early, working a long day, going home and being tired. I'm not saying I don't have it good - at least I can afford to buy that shit, right? But it's not like it was handed to me.

I don't own a car. Why? Because my parents never got me one and I never had money to get one until recently. Yes, lots of kids get their cars from their parents, but I'm right here beside all the adults, taking out a loan and making fucking payments. I'm working 40-50 hours each week so I can have my money.

I wasn't given any advantage, and neither was anyone I know. As a matter of fact, many of us come from pretty disadvantaged places. My mother has multiple sclerosis and is hospitalized, so we never had that second income. Add to that the big medical bills. Add to that the fact that I was shot in the face when I was 14 and that cost a pretty fucking penny in doctors appointments and medical bills. Add to that the fact that I lived in bumfuck and couldn't get a job 'cause I didn't have a car. Life isn't easy. You WORK for it. I have little sympathy for those that sit and bitch and complain about how bad it is and how poor they are without getting off their fucking asses and GETTING A FUCKING JOB. I don't care if it's fucking 7-Eleven, SOMEONE is hiring and it's better than NO money.

"Nobody cares" because they don't have sympathy for lazy fucking slacker shits that vandalize property.

[warch]

The reason Gandi was so succesful was because he had soo many people with him. In this day and
age we don't have the numbers.

The reason Gandhi was successful is because he employed startling strategies of self-sacrifice that educated his opponents about the injustices perpetrated against him and his people. He understood how the media worked and took advantage of it. He used non-violence to effect conscience and change beliefs, an absolutely amazing thing. And he did have the problem of splinter groups with diverse agendas-- They became Pakistan.

[FreeYourself]

Where are these "fucking" jobs?

If you live in a life that you can find a job "even if it's at 7-11" than you ARE living it easy when compared, not to the rest of US, but to the rest of the world.

When the International Monitary Fund and World Bank move in on contries to do "good" they infact allow room for HUUUGE buisnesses to go in and that country suddenly exports everything and imports nothing. Therefor, private farmers go out of buisness, people starve because there food is coming to us so we can pay just $2 for a fucking cheeseburger at our local Fast Food Joint!

I'm sorry, if you think a little paint on a wall isn't justified by these "hidden" worlds world's expoition then I can't understand.

We are not on the same page: We complain about a dam lineup at a donut store whereas these people would work 7 days a week, 12-16 hours a day for as little as 16 cents just so they can stay alive...barely.

Put things into perspective and stop being so dam greedy for just one second. Realize your position and where you stand on the scale of the world and not the isolated Capitalist society in which we live.

[jet_silver]

I'm sorry, if you think a little paint on a wall isn't justified by these "hidden" worlds world's expoition then I can't understand.

When A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. -H. L. Mencken

Simple substitution: A=tagger, B=property owner, X=someone's idea of the 'right' economy.

Another simple substitution: A=government, B=property owner, X= someone's idea of what is a 'nuisance'.

Is the argument clear yet? Your principles are just as unworthy as those you're fighting. You are not on a high horse. You are standing on a scrap of cardboard, pretending you are on a high horse. Few are fooled.

And oh, by the way, if you can't find a fucking job you can always find a job fucking.

Excuse me? Being so damn greedy?

Care to explain that? Point out where I was being greedy, you lazy slacking piece of shit. When you explain that and it makes sense, I'll explain how you're a lazy slacking piece of shit, you lazy slacking piece of shit.

In case you missed it, right off the bat, my point is this: You are in no position to judge me greedy. Besides the fact that you weaken your argument by not using facts (and instead, stupid baseless namecalling), you look like a fucking idiot to the intellectuals of this board because nowhere have I demonstrated greed. Try using your fucking brain to construct an argument instead of rehashing the insult you heard some other dude use last week. That shit won't cut it here - put up or shut up.

...and that country suddenly exports everything and imports nothing.

Maybe you missed Economics class, but you make money by SELLING things, not BUYING them. Exporting == selling. Importing == buying. If a company moves in and exports shit, they need workers. That would be, uh, jobs. You know. Those "fucking" jobs I was talking about earlier, that you questioned. If a big company moves into Nigeria and starts selling elephant pies, they need people to collect, inspect, package and ship these elephant pies. They need supervisors to supervise the workers. They need higher management to supervise the supervisors. They pay these people something we call "money" in exchange for "work." When you are "paid" on a regular basis for work that you complete, that is called HAVING A FUCKING JOB. Companies create jobs. Are you beginning to understand this?

Japan exports every fucking thing in the entire world. What wasn't made in Japan or by those who work for Japanese companies? Not very much. That's why Japan has the second largest economy in the world. Wow, what a ridiculous fucking concept. IF YOU SELL SHIT, YOU GET MONEY.

No one here ever said that it wasn't awful what's happening in some parts of the world. That's another reason why we have these things called "charities". People like me can give the money they want to worthy causes. That's better than pissing it all away in taxes so the government can pay to have a couple fucking buildings sandblasted because they got spraypainted. Can you say "detrimental to the cause and contrary to the preaching"? Uh, let's destroy some shit, 'cause that way the citizens pay more in taxes and can't give as much to charity, so these people in [insert suffering country here] are continuing to suffer. Every dollar spent cleaning that shit up is a dollar that didn't go to foreign aid. Think about that next time you defend ruining shit that isn't yours.

Which brings me to another point that people here, even the intellectuals, seem impossible to grasp: IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT YOU WOULD FEEL THE SAME IF IT HAPPENED TO YOU. What if your car got ruined because you were driving near a protest and they mobbed it? Regarding your animal rights post, how about this: What if you were strutting along one day wearing your fake-leather boots ('cause I assume such a righteous person as yourself would never ever have anything associated with animal suffering - note fucking sarcasm) and some PeTA wacko thinks "mother fucking leather boots!" and beats the shit out of you? "Well, it's okay, his intentions were good." The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Just like the good intentions of a nice, vandalizing protest. Doesn't change the fact that someone else ruined something that wasn't theirs.

Realize your position and where you stand on the scale of the world...

Wow. I only have one eye but I sure as shit saw me write this earlier:

Originally posted by dhamsaic
I'm not saying I don't have it good - at least I can afford to buy that shit, right? But it's not like it was handed to me.

Now, I know I used big words like "afford" and whatnot, but surely someone with the mental ability to construct such compelling arguments as yourself would understand what I meant by that. Such as, well, I have it pretty good and I'm thankful for that. So I'm going to deliberately not follow your suggestion to "realize your position and where you stand on the scale of the world", 'cause, well, I already fucking know.

Now. Do me a fucking favor. Stop trying to be "right" and actually read what I have to say. I'll even write an abridged version if you like - something that lacks the swearing and namecalling. Stop reading arguments to point out flaws in the other's. Read them and see what they're worth. Take into account their point of view. And then, when you're done that, take some time and forumlate a senseful response. Leave out the assuming nature - I promise you, people on this board will hit you for it every time. Work with what they have said, not with what you think they said. There can be a very big difference. Back up your argument with facts. Don't say "IMF ruins lives". Say "When IMF did ................., the economy of .............. suffered as a direct result" and provide evidence to back that. If you can't, well, at the very least, don't toss out broad assumptions as fact. How do you know what these places are like? Have you been there? Or are you reading spin?

Not to come down on you, but try harder next time. Back it up with facts. Make me eat my words. Seriously. And if you do, you'll get a big fat pat on the back and a "congrats". Because I *can* admit when I'm wrong, and I will. Just prove it.

[ Edited to fix a fucking typo! ]

[Griff]

dhamsaic- What is the capacity of your coffee maker? signed Concerned Citizen

[jaguar]

Mabye i should clean what i meant up.. I"ve been to a reasonable number of protests, some anti-WTO, mostly enviromental (mining in national parks). Getting large numbers of people to do somehitng liek that does have a good effect i belevie. BUt hte stupid fuckers who deface stuff and have as much knowledge about the issue is a dried avacardo do nothign to help. I"ve seen people put anarchy symbols on walls - waht the fuck is that menat to do? Yea spraypainting that on a wall is really gonna make the world a better place. UNless people understand what hte fuck is going on they often end up hurting thier own cause. Fucking morons who ripped the sign of the MCDOnals at therecent anti-jabaluka protest thought they were making some kind of statement...huh? All they did was create a nice focus of the media by destroying property of something totally unrelated.

I feel bad about 3rd world countries...as well we should. I'm going to stop it there b/c Jag will begin to rant about that...and we've already covered that topic.

*very restrained today* The only thing ill say is that first world lifestyles are supported by third world poverty - never forget that.

Unrelated Quote: "We kill eachother we call it murder, we kill animals we call it industry. Is this Justice?"

Killing people is a pretty big business too - arms trade is huge.