Faith... to what/whom?

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by marichiko
Stuff like this is part of the reason why I became Buddhist.

I'd love to see everyone questioning and picking apart the Buddhist faith as hard as they question the Christian faith.

[jaguar]

They don't because it isn't really faith, or at least does not require it. A simple philosophy, that is all.

I cannot speak for anyone else but I would consider myself at least somewhat buddhist yet I hold no stick with multiple heavens and hells or even really with reincarnation in general. For me buddhism is simply a philosophy that helps me along.

So, to draw a conclusion, you base your faith on the consensus of of a bunch of guys translating dead languages?

Originally posted by OnyxCougar


I'd love to see everyone questioning and picking apart the Buddhist faith as hard as they question the Christian faith.

Why do you think they don't? For one, Buddhists don't run around condemning everyone to hell who doesn't believe as they do. For another, the teachings of the Buddha are considered the teachings of a great man, not God. I might spout verses from The Dhammapada , (the essential teachings of the Buddha), but these words are not considered the words of God, the way the Bible is.

Like Christianity, Buddhism has many offshoots or sects. But if you go back to the original Pali texts which transcribe the words of the Buddha, nowhere does he cast anyone into hell. He never claimed such powers. He did admonish his followers that if they were to continue to lead lives of ignorance and do things which brought harm upon others, they would pay for such actions in the form of "karma." (a word I hate to even bring up, it has been so over-used and so misunderstood) In other words, if you lead a life devoted solely to your own pleasures, stealing from this person, abusing that one; your actions will come back on you. No one will trust you, and you will have few friends; and should you one day need the help of those around you, you may find that no one wishes to reach a hand out to you.

In Zen Buddhism (one of the "purest" forms), there are no devils or angels or anything else. As I noted in an earlier post, some forms of Buddhism do embody many of the aspects of the old folk religions of the area where they sprang up. Tibetan Buddhism is a good example of this. However, even Tibetan Buddhists don't condemn the world at large to go to hell for not following the teachings of the Buddha. When's the last time you ever heard the Dali Llama say, "Repent or else!"?

[OnyxCougar]

Good points! Thanks! I think I'm just frustrated.

I'm used to taking the other side in debates, and my experience on the "Christian" side of the debate is far more enlightening than I imagined it would be.

[OnyxCougar]

Thought this was interesting, in response to Jim:

that's fucked up. who the fuck are you to say that you can;t love god if you're gay? talk about having an asshole button. please tell me you're being sarcastic and I just missed the joke. jesus christ. Why does our physical sexual appetite have ANYTHING to do with the ability to believe in and love the lord with all of your heart? Here again, is an example of an otherwise lucent and intelligent person saying something completely stupid and hypocritical about the GOD they worship.

I'm not anyone to say that you can't love god if you're gay. But Jesus is. And he said:

John, Chapter 14
21The person who has My commands and keeps them is the one who [really] loves Me; and whoever [really] loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I [too] will love him and will show (reveal, manifest) Myself to him. [I will let Myself be clearly seen by him and make Myself real to him.]

23Jesus answered, If a person [really] loves Me, he will keep My word [obey My teaching]; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home (abode, special dwelling place) with him.
24Anyone who does not [really] love Me does not observe and obey My teaching. And the teaching which you hear and heed is not Mine, but [comes] from the Father Who sent Me.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
10Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.

I'd appreciate not being called hypocritical.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar


Which was my main problem with the Bible to start with.
This is a link regarding the irreancy of scripture

This is a link regarding all the different copies

This is a link about why there are different translations.

The first link says the bible is true because the bible says so. C'mon.
The second link says the new testament is accurate because Jesus said the old testament was accurate. Yeah, sure.
""Which translation is best?", there can be no singular answer. I suggest that every Christian who is serious about studying the Bible own at least two translations. He should have at least one dynamic equivalence translation (or phrase-for-phrase) and one formal equivalence translation (that is, word-for-word translation). In fact, it would be good to have two dynamic equivalence translations--because in this type of translation, the translator is also the interpreter. If his interpretation is correct, it can only clarify the meaning of the text; if it is incorrect, then it only clarifies the interpretation of the translator!"
So none of them are right.

[OnyxCougar]

I have 3 translations, King James, Amplified and New Internation Version.

For some reason, the NIV deletes certain verses altogether. It doesn't change the numbering of the rest of the verses, it just skips a verse. I don't know why it does that.

I like the amplified because it takes all those words that don't have a direct english translation and gives you multiple words to help you understand the original greek or hebrew.

After I get good at Russian and Croatian, I think I'ma go for greek.

I've also been checking out Shavian English....that's a trip....

[xoxoxoBruce]

Do all 3 bibles have the same 10 commandments?

[OnyxCougar]

Essentially. Listed here:

Amplified Bible
Exodus 20

1THEN GOD spoke all these words:
2I am the Lord your God, Who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3You shall have no other gods before or besides Me.
4You shall not make yourself any graven image [to worship it] or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5You shall not bow down yourself to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me,(1)
6But showing mercy and steadfast love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7You shall not use or repeat the name of the Lord your God in vain [that is, lightly or frivolously, in false affirmations or profanely]; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8[Earnestly] remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy (withdrawn from common employment and dedicated to God).
9Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, your daughter, your manservant, your maidservant, your domestic animals, or the sojourner within your gates.
11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it [set it apart for His purposes].
12Regard (treat with honor, due obedience, and courtesy) your father and mother, that your days may be long in the land the Lord your God gives you.
13You shall not commit murder.
14You shall not commit [1] adultery.(2)
15You shall not steal.(3)
16You shall not witness falsely against your neighbor.(4)
17You shall not covet your neighbor's house, your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.(5)

KJV
Exodus 20
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

NIV
Exodus 20


The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before [1] me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

New American Standard Bible
Exodus 20


The Ten Commandments

1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 "(1) I am the LORD your God, (2) who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 "(3) You shall have no other (4) gods [1] before Me.
4 "(5) You shall not make for yourself [2] an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 "(6) You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a (7) jealous God, (8) visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing lovingkindness to (9) thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 "(10) You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 "Remember (11) the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "(12) Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it (13) you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "(14) For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "(15) Honor your father and your mother, that your (16) days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
13 "(17) You shall not murder.
14 "(18) You shall not commit adultery.
15 "(19) You shall not steal.
16 "(20) You shall not bear false witness against your (21) neighbor.
17 "(22) You shall not covet your neighbor's house; (23) you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
I have 3 translations, King James, Amplified and New Internation Version.

For some reason, the NIV deletes certain verses altogether. It doesn't change the numbering of the rest of the verses, it just skips a verse. I don't know why it does that.

Which one is the infallible word of God?

[OnyxCougar]

My KJV Study bible has this table:

<table>
<tr><td>The Ten Commandments Said</td><td>Jesus Said:</td></tr>
<tr><td>Exodus 20:3 Have no other gods before me.</td><td>Matthew 4:10 Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve.</td></tr>

<tr><td>Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.</td><td>Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters.</td></tr>

<tr><td>Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take teh name of the lord thy god in vain.</td><td>Matthew 5:34 Swear not at all, neither by heaven; for it is God's throne.</td></tr>

<tr><td>Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy.</td><td>Mark 2:27-28 the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the son of man is lord also of the Sabbath.</td></tr>

<tr><td>Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother.</td><td>Matthew 10:37 Him that loveth father and mother over me is not worthy of me.</td></tr>
</table>

etc.....

Which one is the infallible word of God?

The original text. Unfortunetly, I can't read Greek nor Hebrew, so I depend on other people to translate the text of the original documents for me. God didn't write in English. Sorry.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
I have 3 translations, King James, Amplified and New Internation Version.

For some reason, the NIV deletes certain verses altogether. It doesn't change the numbering of the rest of the verses, it just skips a verse. I don't know why it does that.

Ok, here's the history. In about the mid 400's the church at Constantinople started gathering together all the extant manuscripts to form the "authorized text" of the scriptures. They used a technique called "conflation", which is, rather than delete any part of the text that might be accurate, they would try to retain any alternate language in the final form. If one text said one thing, and another text said something else, they would insert both into the new, conflated, authorized text.

From that point, there were several, several copies of the new authorized text made, and spread throughout the churches. Fast-forward 1200 years, and when King James commissioned a new translation, they used a very simple method for deciding which words to use from the existing manuscripts. They looked at every available manuscript, and counted up how many used each version of an alternate text.

The problem is, the “Eastern Texts” weighed unusually high in the numerical count, but they were all essentially copies of the same Constantinople conflation. The discipline of textual criticism has increased exponentially in the intervening years, and we keep discovering older and better ancient manuscripts. In newer translations, the rubric for deciding which alternate words to use relies heavily on evaluating the value of the source material, not just on a numerical count of manuscripts that have each version.

It’s worth noting that we’re talking about very, very few aberrations here. The preservation of the text is of a level unseen in any other ancient text. There are existing copies that appear to be as original as 3rd generational copies (early to mid 2nd Century), within 100 years of their probable writing dates. We have extant copies prior to the 300’s spread as far as the Coptic churches in Egypt all the way to Russia In the north, spanning Europe, in substantial agreement. Where they disagree, they are almost always clerical errors that are easily deduced (leaving off a movable nou vowel, a drop of ink that gets interpreted as an accent). Where they contain substantial linguistic differences that pertain to matters of theology, they never stand alone. There is no orthodox theology of the church that rests solely on verses that have textual errors.

We will never all agree on the value, or the purpose, of the New Testament writings. But let’s at least put to bed the argument that it was poorly translated and can never be understood because it’s riddled with errors. Let’s at least recognize that it is a feat of preservation and transmission unrivaled in the world of literature.

I can take a manuscript written 1750 years ago, sit in a locked room, and translate it into English, and hand you something that looks substantially like any modern English translation that you can buy at Borders. We have an amazing textual record. We should trust our English translations to say and mean substantially the same thing as the original Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew texts.

-sm

[I told you if it was an inch, it was a mile. I apologize ahead of time, because if I’m going to be in on this discussion, it will never be succinct. It’s just too complex for that.]

[OnyxCougar]

Thank you, thank you, and thank you.

[xoxoxoBruce]

First Tables of Stone (Exodus 20)
("which Moses didst break")

Second Tables of Stone (Exodus 34)
("the words that were on the first")


1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.

1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).


2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image. You shall not bow down to them or serve them.

2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.


3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.


4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

4. All the first-born are mine.


5. Honor your father and your mother.

5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.


6. You shall not kill.

6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.


7. You shall not commit adultery.

7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.


8. You shall not steal.

8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.


9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.


10. You shall not covet.

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Protestant
Catholic
Hebrew

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.


2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.


3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.


4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.

4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the Sabbath in honour of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.


5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

5. Thou shalt not kill.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother; in order that thy days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.


6. Thou shalt not kill.

6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

6. Thou shalt not kill.


7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

7. Thou shalt not steal.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.


8. Thou shalt not steal.

8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

8. Thou shalt not steal.


9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.


10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


King James Bible, issued by the American Bible Society.

Catholic Catechism by Peter Cardinal Gasparri, "published with Ecclesiastical approval" and bearing the imprimatur of Patrick Cardinal Hayes, Archbishop, New York. P. J. Kenedy & Sons, 1932.

Bloch Publishing Company, New York, 1922.

Yet the all came from the same source.