Fast and Furious

[BigV]

won't do my home work for me

come back for a more intelligent discussion

???

What in the world makes you think me doing more homework will make your discussion more intelligent? Seriously. You posted an **opinion**, not even your opinion, and I mocked it. I'm unsurprised you can't support it, I doubt it is supportable at all, which is why I called bullshit in the first place.

Putting the burden on me to find support for someone else's opinion is ridiculous. You've got it, or you don't, or you just have faith, like JBKlyde.

[classicman]

Sorry - won't play that here.
You admittedly don't know what you are talking about on this issue.
I posted a video and thought that it was only fair to post the piece that went along with it.

[BigV]

I'm not playing, man. Yes, I have a certain amount of ignorance, and a certain amount of skepticism about this issue. I've no problem admitting my ignorance. I didn't just admit it, I confessed it and offered it as justification for wanting to know more about the issue, which you gave me the impression you have. I asked nicely, too. But you rebuffed my request by telling me to do my homework. Ok, Dad.

I did watch your video. I did read the article. You know what I found there to support the assertion that there's a memo outlining a plot by ATF and DoJ officials? Bupkis. Which is what I am getting from you to support such an outrageous claim. For the record, ON the record, I visited Rep Issa's site on this subject too (more homework!). I thought if *anyone* had such a document, it'd be him. Here's the result of my homework:



Check my homework yourself here.

[classicman]

Really? Lets start a little more broadly with the overall issue, ok. Forget the memo that guy was talking about. Thats got very little to do with this issue. Why you are so fixated on that is beyond me. The memo isn't an issue right now. Get an overall understanding of whats happened first.
BTW, you are far better than that link you posted...
try this link as an appetizer and then move on to some outside sources of your own.

Also, try watching a few videos of the actual hearings from the first go round and then follow up with some of the newer ones from this week.

ETA - Here is the home page ... http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/

[BigV]

Originally Posted by classicman

Really? Lets start a little more broadly with the overall issue, ok. Forget the memo that guy was talking about. Thats got very little to do with this issue. Why you are so fixated on that is beyond me. The memo isn't an issue right now. Get an overall understanding of whats happened first.

--snip

I don't want to start a little more broadly, I've already started.

Forget the memo? No, I won't unless you're willing to recant it. That kind of smear is a problem for me. "Obama is an anti-capitalists socialist alien who is actively trying to destroy the economy according to these memos." and then blathering on about something else entirely. Oops, never mind that, that's not an issue. It's an issue for me if I'm going to try to gain a broader understanding. If I'm going to try to develop the level of credibility I give one source or another. Unsubstantiated claims like that are not just trivial bullshit, they're real.

So, when I hear crap mixed in with other unknown stuff, what can I use to asses the validity of the unknown stuff? Well, it hangs out with crap, so... that's one data point.

Look, I think this "plan" by the ATF is stupid. Probably illegal too, though that is to be decided. Hopefully decided based on facts. And I'm trying to gather facts, not political bullshit/pandering/bloviating/propaganda. I'll set it aside as some kind of political irrelevancy when it comes to the facts of this matter. But it remains a fact about the quality of the source of information. Right now, that source is one that is long on opinion, and short on facts.

[Happy Monkey]

Huh. That link is to a .gov site that is basically a portal to http://fastandfuriousinvestigation.com/.

[classicman]

So what, HM? I said its a start. Offer a few more sites of your own to add to the list. There is plenty of info out there.

[Happy Monkey]

It's odd, is all. If you set up a .gov and a .com, and have one point to the other, actually hosting on the .gov would feel more legit.

(And my firewall agrees, amusingly.)

[Clodfobble]

V, the information on the memo was posted by Merc in post #114. The link is to a CBS article on the memo, and the article includes links to emails and memos sent by the ATF.

[BigV]

Hey Clodfobble,

Thank you very much for your help. I went to the article at the link you provided (I didn't pay that much attention to mercy's post, though I now see it was there) and read the article, read the pdfs at the links in the article. I found it very informative. Very helpful, thanks.

As for the content, I think there's enough political looseness in this whole situation to allow lots of different ... ahem ... statements fly. Having read the article CF pointed out to me, I find my assessment of the author of the statement "officials plotting for political purposes" reaffirmed; not neutral, not centered on fairness. That's fine, really fine, people have opinions, positions, and I am at the head of that pack. But now I know how to view information coming from that source.

It no longer feels like "bullshit" as I estimated before, but neither do I believe it rises to the level of a conspiracy. I say this because the Demand 3 letter they were "gathering anecdotal evidence in support of" was the third such letter. Apparently Demand Letters have some precedent even before Operation Fast and Furious was pulled out of someone's ass. That's not what I'd call a "plot". Now we can debate, and certainly someone will, what the follow on consequences of this operation will be, or what the motivations were, who knew what and when did they know it, etc, etc. For sure.

[classicman]

what the motivations were, who knew what and when did they know it, etc, etc. For sure.

Good - you are well on your way ...

Now watch some of the videos on youtube from this weeks hearings. Specifically Issa's would be a good start. Holder is still refusing to comply.

[classicman]

“Did you at any time, at any time, email on your personal account with Lanny Breuer or Gary Grindler with regards to Fast and Furious — ever?” Adams asked Holder. “Yes or no?”

“I don’t know,” Holder responded.

“Would you check and get back with us?” “If you need some help, I’m sure your agency personnel can get into those computers.”

“With regard to the provision of emails, I though I made clear that after February 4, it is not our intention to provide email information consistent with the way in which the Justice Department has always conducted itself,” Holder said in response to Adams’ questioning.

This begs the question - Why not?

[classicman]

Arizona Republican Rep. Paul Gosar has filed a resolution in the House of Representatives pushing for vote of “no confidence” in Attorney General Eric Holder.

In a statement, Gosar denounced Holder’s continued refusal to comply with lawfully issued subpoenas and other official congressional requests for information.

“It is imperative that the citizens of our nation have confidence in our Attorney General,” Gosar said in the statement. “After months of evasive answers, silence and outright lies it is time that Congress speak up on behalf of the many people who have or will fall victims to the firearms in the flawed gunrunning operation Fast & Furious.”

There are currently 55 House members and two members of the Senate demanding Holder’s resignation, along with four GOP presidential candidates and two sitting governors. Many of those in Congress who have called for Holder’s ouster have also signed on to Gosar’s resolution.

Gosar’s no-confidence resolution is similar to a symbolic effort California Democratic Rep. Adam Schiff spearheaded against Bush administration Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in 2007. Gonzales eventually resigned in a flurry of political pressure from Congress and the media.

Already, far more members have demanded Holder’s resignation than did Gonzales’, yet most media outlets have underplayed the issue. Holder did react harshly when TheDC confronted him a White House event on Nov. 29, alleging that TheDC is somehow “behind” the calls for his resignation and demanding that TheDC stop reporting on them.

This is a pretty right wing blog, but I'm not seeing this reported elsewhere. Take the opinion out and just deal with the details.

Read more:

[classicman]

Mexican authorities have arrested a reputed enforcer for the country's most powerful drug cartel -- a man also alleged to have amassed weapons from the U.S. government's failed Fast and Furious gun-smuggling operation (link, in Spanish, includes video).

Jose Antonio Torres Marrufo, 33, is also wanted by U.S. officials on drug-trafficking charges in El Paso. Mexican and U.S. authorities say he served as a top lieutenant to Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman and the Sinaloa Cartel and was in charge of operations in the border state of Chihuahua (link in Spanish).

It was there, in the violent city of Ciudad Juarez, that a raid by Mexican police in April 2011 turned up high-powered assault guns purchased illegally through the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives "Fast and Furious" program. As the Washington Bureau's Richard A. Serrano reported last fall, the discovery confirmed that Fast and Furious weapons were reaching the ruthless Sinaloa organization and that the geographic spread of the "walked" guns was wider than originally thought.

aptured along with Torres Marrufo were two assault rifles and two automatic pistols, along with fake press ID badges, which Ramon Pequeno, head of the police anti-drug division, said the gangsters apparently used to move around more freely. Torres was presented to journalists over the weekend; standing handcuffed between masked, heavily armed federal agents, he wore blue jeans and a burgundy T-shirted emblazoned with the word, "Armani."

Link

MRC analysts reviewed the Big Three network evening and morning news shows and found that while CBS aired 29 stories and 1 brief on Fast and Furious, ABC aired only one brief on the June 15, 2011 edition of Good Morning America. That was still better than what NBC did on their morning and evening news programs, as the gunwalking story has never been mentioned on either NBC Nightly News or the Today show.

[classicman]

ATF's mysterious grenade smuggler case: new photos, documents turned over to Congress

Evidence photos just turned over to Congress under subpoena show a frightening stash of grenade parts, fuse assemblies and more than 2,000 rounds of ammunition. It was all hidden in a spare tire of an SUV crossing from the US to Mexico in 2010. The accused smuggler, an alleged drug cartel arms dealer named Jean Baptise Kingery, was questioned by agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) but released.

Documents handed over to Congress by the Justice Department shed new light on missteps in the grenades case, and how ATF tracked the suspect for years.

ATF started watching Kingery in "2004 related to AK47 purchases," according to an internal email, "it is believed that he is trafficking them to Mexico." A full five years later in late 2009, ATF also learned Kingery was dealing in grenades: he'd ordered 120 grenade bodies on the Internet.

Grenades are weapons of choice for Mexico's killer drug cartels. An attack on a casino in Mexico last year killed 53 people.

Documents show ATF secretly intercepted the grenade bodies Kingery had ordered, marked them, and delivered them to him on Jan. 26, 2010. Their plan was to follow Kingery to his weapons factory in Mexico, with help from Mexican authorities Immigration and Customs (ICE).

The plan to allow Kingery to traffic grenade parts into a foreign country and track him to his factory drew strong internal objections.

"That's not possible," wrote a lead ATF official in Mexico. "We are forbidden from doing that type of activity. If ICE is telling you they can do that, they are full of [expletive]..."

The Justice Department Inspector General is investigating the Kingery case along with ATF's Operation Fast and Furious, which allowed thousands of assault rifles and other weapons to "walk" into the hands of Mexican drug cartels in a failed attempt to take down a major cartel.

There are some similarities between the Kingery grenade case and Fast and Furious. The chief suspect in Fast and Furious, Manuel Celis-Acosta was stopped by law enforcement three times but released -- while allegedly trafficking firearms for cartels. It wasn't until weapons linked to him turned up at the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry that ATF finally charged Acosta.

The Kingery case and Fast and Furious were both supervised out of ATF's Phoenix office by Special Agent in Charge Bill Newell. It was Newell who wrote an email and delivered the bad news about Kingery to Washington DC headquarters: Mexican officials "lost Kingery" even though "they had plenty of notice and descriptive info."