WWJK: Who would Jesus Kill - Military supplier adds bible references to rifle sights

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Define 'they'.

Why is that necessary? If you don't know who wants to cut your head off, DanaC, I'd say you're missing a fundamental right there. And you can imagine why they'd want to cut your personal head off, can't you?

And you know they wouldn't be right or righteous, yet would be by some jerkass philosophy entirely Politically Correct.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Why is that necessary? If you don't know who wants to cut your head off, DanaC, I'd say you're missing a fundamental right there. And you can imagine why they'd want to cut your personal head off, can't you?

And you know they wouldn't be right or righteous, yet would be by some jerkass philosophy entirely Politically Correct.

So speaketh the urbane one; handily leaping into the conceptual trap to which I was referring in the first place.

My point, UG, is that people have raised the potential issue of 'moslems' being given the wrong impression about the nature of this war: to whit, that it is a Christian 'crusade' against Islam. Other people have responded by suggesting that those who might take offence (i.e. moslems) are the enemy and should be more concerned with why they are being sighted in the gun sights in the first place; or, as you so neatly suggest, are the ones who might be wanting to cut my head off. Thereby confirming that, as far as you are concerned, any moslem is apparently slotted into the category of enemy in this conflict.

I don't really think any of the people who've raised objections to the bible verses were doing so because they think it might offend a Taleban or AQ fighter. The problem is that it might offend, or more importantly exacerbate perceptions of the war as a Christian crusade amongst other moslems - y'know...the ones we aren't fighting. Maybe even the ones who are our allies; our comrades; and the people we are hoping to 'liberate'.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by DanaC

The problem is that it might offend, or more importantly exacerbate perceptions of the war as a Christian crusade amongst other moslems - y'know...the ones we aren't fighting. Maybe even the ones who are our allies; our comrades; and the people we are hoping to 'liberate'.

I gotcha. I understand this. Again how far do we go? When they feel that celebrating Christmas is offensive or going to church or or or whatever. How far do we go so that we don't UNINTENTIONALLY offend someone.

Oh and are they doing the same for us? Not trying to start a a tit for tat here. Just asking.

Also, You didn't respond to the scenario I presented you.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Politically Correct may mean that now; but it started out referring to the attempt not to offend particular groups of people with language that had become loaded. So, it became politically incorrect to talk about 'the little woman' or 'the fairer sex' and became equally politically incorrect to talk about 'darkies' or 'our dusky cousins'.

I am often bemused by how much effort people put into arguing their right to offend. and equally bemused by the level of venom aimed at those who would choose to temper language in an effort not to cause undue offence.

There seems far more venom directed at the 'PC brigade' than at the people who are causing offence by using outdated and offensive language to describe groups of people. Likewise there is far more venom in here for those who would seek not to offend moslems generally through clumsy inclusion of bible verses on gun sights, than there is for a company who was clumsy enough to include those verses in the first place.

Anybody who is offended, or claims an awareness of the potential for offence gets lumped in to a big group and discounted instantly. More disturbingly, given the context of this discussion, is that any moslem who might be offended by this is assumed to be 'the enemy' ... any moslem in Afghanistan should apparently be more concerned by why they are being sighted with this equipment than what is written on it...in other words, all Afghan Moslems are the enemy.

Amen.

Originally Posted by DanaC

My point, UG, is that people have raised the potential issue of 'moslems' being given the wrong impression about the nature of this war: to whit, that it is a Christian 'crusade' against Islam.

Based on the replies, I believe we need to entertain the idea that for a group of war supporters this is, by nature, a Crusade.

[lookout123]

I think we were talking about a group of people who may or may not be offended by markings on a scope. We are worried about offending a group of people we are already looking at through these scopes though, so... who gives a damn.

To make my position perfectly clear: I don't care about the markings. While I am a Christian I think stuff like that is just hokey. I don't own the company though, so that is their choice. What I do care about is the sad little people running around crying, "aaaagggghhh, we might have offended someone!".

[xoxoxoBruce]

I agree with, the "sad little people" of the PC brigade, are not my concern, but if Petraeus and McCrystal feel it gives the enemy a propaganda advantage, then it must be rectified. It's our absolute obligation to support our field commanders in any, and every, way possible.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by lookout123

We are worried about offending a group of people we are already looking at through these scopes though, so... who gives a damn.

I think it was all the muslim people who are NOT terrorists that they are worried about offending and or turning into terrorists because of these microscopic writing on a piece of ancillary equipment.

[lookout123]

If our generals want it off then the company has to choose between their verses and their contracts. Seems pretty easy to me. I do support the generals on this but I wonder if they'd have become involved if it weren't for the PC brigade in the first place.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If it weren't for the PC brigade, it probably wouldn't have become an propaganda opportunity for the baddies. But that's a moot point now.

[classicman]

Unfortunately thats correct, xob.

[TheMercenary]

Most importantly, will it hit what I want when I put the crosshairs on it. I doubt most of them care. I suspect that the majority of those who care are not from the country of distribution. They are just happy to have something other than iron sights on the back of an AKS.

[lookout123]

That makes sense. I can just hear Abdul now, "Mohammed, they have verses on some of their scopes! I will quit being an accountant today and blow myself up in protest!"

[classicman]

Originally Posted by lookout123

That makes sense. I can just hear Abdul now, "Mohammed, they DON'T have verses on some of their scopes! I will quit being a DRUG DEALER today and NOT go and blow myself up in protest!"

fixed that for ya.

[chrisinhouston]

This ran on NPR's All Things Considered and I think it is good food for thought on this topic. Take a moment and read what an ex-marine who served in Iraq has to say.

Hold The Hallelujah: The Perils Of Rifles And Religion
by Benjamin Busch

Benjamin Busch was an infantry officer in the United States Marine Corps. His memoir, 'Bearing Arms', recently appeared in 'Harper's' and his photographs from Iraq have been featured in 'Five Points', and 'War, Literature, & the Arts'. His newest essay, 'Growth Rings', is in the current issue of the 'Michigan Quarterly Review'. He lives in Michigan with his wife and their two daughters.

As a Marine invading Iraq in 2003, I thought we actively separated church and state from our motives.

I know that Scripture embedded in the obscure numbers on rifle scopes may seem like a small detail, and that manufacturer Trijicon likely intended no particular malice by placing biblical references on its equipment. Like, 2COR4:6 represents 2 Corinthians 4:6, "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." There seems to have been neither marketing nor secrecy associated with the presence of these inscriptions.

But these are not innocent times, and the codes are still messages printed and sent out. These notes have now been read and exposed, and we have the baggage of explaining ourselves to people convinced that many of our actions are motivated by religion instead of self-defense, justice or altruism.

As a Marine, I aimed at Iraq through rifle scopes, my vision amplified. When viewing other cultures, even enemies, I think we should be wary of seeing them through a lens marked by religion.

The United States is fighting Islamic extremists. But we are not Christian extremists. When I returned for my second tour in 2005, we were in the embattled city of Ramadi, and we fought jihadists, tribal factions and criminals alongside almost entirely Muslim Iraqi soldiers. It was impossible to segregate the ambitions of singular religions then.

Although the rifle equipment was stamped as a private act by a private company, it was sold to governments, and therefore unavoidably and knowingly coupled with politics. Biblical quotes were thoughtfully chosen — thoughtful enough not to be allowed as innocent of larger context.

By branding weapons with Christian messages, there is a deep and ugly blending of religion, politics and bloodshed, and it has unwittingly painted our government and military with the embarrassing language of "crusade."

America is largely composed of people who consider themselves Christian, separated by various interpretations of the same book. But I did not go onward as a Christian soldier. I went forth as an American, a Marine. I was sent by my country to fight a threat, and thereafter with the best intentions of democracy, not theocracy.

Our efforts in the Middle East were complicated enough, and small symbols are examined carefully by our opponents. Based on my understanding of the teachings of Christ, he would be very disappointed to see his Gospel assigned to war of any kind in the first place.

I leave you with a verse that has not been stamped on our weapons: "But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you" — Matthew 5:44.

[Happy Monkey]

Straw-carrying camels originated in the Middle East.