11/4/2002: Gay Games open - Page 9

juju · 11-14-2002, 09:28 PM

This is <i>exactly</i> the same thing as the 'Bitch' thread. Transsexuals have their own personal definition of the word, and the rest of the world has theirs.

Most people's definition of gender is "men have penises, women have vaginas". The medical definition is, "You're female if you lack a Y chromosome". We'd have to do an informal survey to prove this, but i'm willing to bet most people feel this way.

Therefore, I unequivocly <i>win</i> the bitch thread debate. Hooray for me!!!! :)

juju · 11-14-2002, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by philgump
If you have to wonder how those comments make a gay/queer/DQ/Transgendered person feel quid pro quo you should think of how it makes a right wing Christian feel. You see for some, religion may not be as strong but for an Orthodox Jew, Catholic, or many denominations of Protestant faith there is such a thing as a "Sin of Tolerance" this means if they do not take strides in tell the person at fault of his/her sins then they themselves have sinned. Now I have read the scriptures they are referring to and I think they have misunderstood the verse in question but, just as we have the right to think the way we want, they have the right to think the way they want.

I find it amazing that you feel this way. I personally am very prejudiced against Christian fundamentalists, and I really don't care one whit about what makes them feel bad. Hell, i'd probably do things just to annoy them (Heh..Dar can attest to this). Just shows how insenstive I am, I guess. :)

Still, your response was very educational, and I feel like I know a lot more of where you're coming from now. I definitely need to meet more people like you.

I'm also surprised at how accepting the communities you've lived in are towards gays. Perhaps the world really is progressing nicely, after all. Is Arkansas the only barbaric holdout?

Quote:

Originally posted by philgump
On a side note, it is not the negative I have a problem with. At least when someone says " I hates fags". I know where I stand. What I hate are the ones that find out from another acquaintance that you are gay and they have to go out of there way to tell me that "It's great that you are gay" or " I have no problem with gays, I just want you to know that" those people I have no time for. They are not saying for my benefit they are doing it either because they don't want to look like a bigot or they are trying to convince themselves that what they are saying is true.

I'm willing to bet that these people, like me, have seen gays seriously abused on a very frequent basis. They probably assume you've been hassled a lot, when in fact you haven't been. Therefore, they're trying to console you, but you don't have the same experiences as them, and so it just annoys you. Very interesting.

MaggieL · 11-14-2002, 09:53 PM

Well, you can "call" a relationship between a post-transition female-to-male transsexual and an unsuspecting, otherwise heterosexual woman "homosexual", but I maintain by doing so you achieve only an appearance of accuracy by completely sacrificing descriptive and predictive power. When gender is not constant, "heterosexual" and "homosexual" become multivalued terms.

I think you're all wet on the medical definition, by the way. Especially in a world with genetic mosaics, interesexed conditions, androgen-insensitivity syndrome, and peripheral hornome conversion.

I've got a notarized letter from my surgeon certifying me as a functional female., so we could count that as one medical votefor the "innie/outie" standard, I suppose. It was good enough to amend my birth certificate.

juju · 11-14-2002, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MaggieL
I think you're all wet on the medical definition, by the way. Especially in a world with genetic mosaics, interesexed conditions, androgen-insensitivity syndrome, and peripheral hornome conversion.

Hmm.. I don't think I follow you. Care to expand on that?

MaggieL · 11-14-2002, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by philgump
If you have to wonder how those comments make a gay/queer/DQ/Transgendered person feel quid pro quo you should think of how it makes a right wing Christian feel. You see for some, religion may not be as strong but for an Orthodox Jew, Catholic, or many denominations of Protestant faith there is such a thing as a "Sin of Tolerance" this means if they do not take strides in tell the person at fault of his/her sins then they themselves have sinned.

How does that stack up against "the sin of pride"? Like where you concentrate on the mote in your neighbor's eye before dealing with the beam in your own?

MaggieL · 11-14-2002, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju

Hmm.. I don't think I follow you. Care to expand on that?

Sure. In a genetic mosaic, the genotype is not the same in every cell. You can have an individual with Y chromosomes in some cell lines but not in others. An intersexed individual can have sexually ambiguous genetalia, the differentiation that occurs in one stage of fetal growth can be incomplete, or this can result in a hermaphrodite or other outcomes.

All embryos start off fundamentally female, but some of them get exposed to testosterone in utero, which casues them to develop male. This is *supposed* to be consistant thoughout development. and *supposed* to only happen when the baby is genetically male, but sometimes shit happens. Then things get interesting.

One very well-known theory about transexuality is that it may be a neurological intersex state, where the brain is constructed, say, female while the body develps male. (this differentiation occurs at a different stage of fetal development from the genetalia). We're only discovering today how many estrogenic compounds are *extremely* comnmon in the environment and getting more so, and lots of pregnant moms in the 1950's were taking DES "to prevent miscarriages", so that didn't help either.

Peripheral conversion and androgen insensitivity result in individuals whose hormone balance doesn't match their genetic sex on a chronic basis. Peripheral conversion can change testosterone into estrogen or vice versa, while in AIS there can be boatloads of testosterone around but the receptors are somehow blocked.

BrianR · 11-15-2002, 12:32 PM

So where in this whole discussion do hermaphrodites fit in?

No one has mentioned them yet and since I count one as my friend (but I'm still wrestling with a definition for my own personal comfort) I'm looking at an empty slot (no pun intended) in the whole LBGT thing.

Maggie? Can you address this as well?

Brian

back to lurking

That Guy · 11-15-2002, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrianR
A study was commissioned to find out why married women like Chinese food so much.

The conclusion was that Won Ton spelled backward is Not Now.

I loathe Joan Rivers.

MaggieL · 11-15-2002, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrianR
So where in this whole discussion do hermaphrodites fit in?
...Maggie? Can you address this as well?

Well, I'm not really qualified to speak for the frankly physically interesexed, hermaphrodites included; I don't even know any such people personally--at least to know that I know them.

But--as you have already discovered--just by existing, they serve as paradigm-breakers for the binary gender system most folks subscribe to, and without which even the distinction between heterosexuality and homosexuality breaks down.

What sort of relationship there is or should be between the transsexual community and intersexed folks I'm at a loss to say, and it is indeed a cause celebre in some gender politics circles.

Beletseri · 11-15-2002, 03:47 PM

My personal belief is that you are more defined by what is in your brain (what you think you are and what you are attracted to) than by any dangly bits or the lack thereof.

As for hermaphrodites, what gender does your friend identify with?

MaggieL · 11-15-2002, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beletseri
My personal belief is that you are more defined by what is in your brain...

True enough. But when we speak of "homosexual vs. heterosexual relationships" (whatver that actually means), what's in the mind of *both* participants is important. In the case in question, both players saw a heterosexual relationship; what the spectators think in retrospect doesn't count for much.

BrianR · 11-16-2002, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beletseri
My personal belief is that you are more defined by what is in your brain (what you think you are and what you are attracted to) than by any dangly bits or the lack thereof.

As for hermaphrodites, what gender does your friend identify with?

I'm somewhat at a loss to answer that Beletseri...it refuses to even allow gender-specific pronouns. And I'm at a loss to decide wether or not I should be holding the door!

From my own personal views, it leans towards the feminine, which really comes as no surprise to most of us. It tells me that it's female reproductive systems are operational but it isn't sure about it's male ones. It gets erections, acheives orgasm and ejaculates like a male, but does not know if it produces viable sperm from it's (undescended) testicles.

It also can have intercourse like a female, but has a harder time with orgasm (still no surprise) since it lacks a true clitoris. (insert witty misogynistic female sex joke here) :p

It makes me think more about this thread that it really deserves, but I'm actually considering inviting it to the Cellar just to get it into this thread and offer it's uh, unique insights here.

Brian

Beletseri · 11-16-2002, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrianR

It makes me think more about this thread that it really deserves, but I'm actually considering inviting it to the Cellar just to get it into this thread and offer it's uh, unique insights here.

Brian

I think that would be terrific. If I remember my developmental anatomy, the male penis is the homologous tissue to the female clitoris. but someone should check me on that.

So your friend really is hermaphroditic even in his/her brain. Sorry, I just can't refer to a person as it.

philgump · 11-16-2002, 07:59 PM

This is just my simple opinion. If you have an XY chromosome then you are male if it is YY then you are female. That is it. Simple DNA tests can be done to determine this. Now granted there are certain things that can adversely affect this such as Turner's Syndrome or Klinefelter Syndrome as well as several other unnamed and named X&Y chromosomal disorders.

If someone suffers one of these disorders then perhaps I can see where one would say they are trans-sexed. I am under the impression from looking at MaggieL that he/she does not suffer from any of the aforementioned conditions, although I could be wrong.

I know this may make some people mad but you can't just choose; there is VERY clear science on what makes a man and what makes a woman.

Besides all that. That is not what this whole thing is about it is about the absurdity of having specialized 'Gay Games" if you think about it even sounds absurd. I mean it is a free world and you can do what you want. . . .but I have the right to laugh my ass of at you doing it. Freedom has a bitchy way like that.

Beletseri · 11-16-2002, 08:09 PM

Here is the origin of the bits.
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/sexdev.html

As you can see, it isn't as simple as XX XY, Oh and Philgump, you might want to make use of the edit function.

11-14-2002, 09:28 PM	#121
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	This is <i>exactly</i> the same thing as the 'Bitch' thread. Transsexuals have their own personal definition of the word, and the rest of the world has theirs. Most people's definition of gender is "men have penises, women have vaginas". The medical definition is, "You're female if you lack a Y chromosome". We'd have to do an informal survey to prove this, but i'm willing to bet most people feel this way. Therefore, I unequivocly <i>win</i> the bitch thread debate. Hooray for me!!!! :) Last edited by juju; 11-14-2002 at 09:31 PM.

11-14-2002, 09:53 PM	#123
MaggieL in the Hour of Scampering Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia) Posts: 4,060	Well, you can "call" a relationship between a post-transition female-to-male transsexual and an unsuspecting, otherwise heterosexual woman "homosexual", but I maintain by doing so you achieve only an appearance of accuracy by completely sacrificing descriptive and predictive power. When gender is not constant, "heterosexual" and "homosexual" become multivalued terms. I think you're all wet on the medical definition, by the way. Especially in a world with genetic mosaics, interesexed conditions, androgen-insensitivity syndrome, and peripheral hornome conversion. I've got a notarized letter from my surgeon certifying me as a functional female., so we could count that as one medical votefor the "innie/outie" standard, I suppose. It was good enough to amend my birth certificate. __________________ "Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..." Last edited by MaggieL; 11-14-2002 at 09:56 PM.

11-15-2002, 12:32 PM	#127
BrianR Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,338	I feel like a trubblemaker today So where in this whole discussion do hermaphrodites fit in? No one has mentioned them yet and since I count one as my friend (but I'm still wrestling with a definition for my own personal comfort) I'm looking at an empty slot (no pun intended) in the whole LBGT thing. Maggie? Can you address this as well? Brian back to lurking __________________ Never be afraid to tell the world who you are. -- Anonymous

11-16-2002, 07:59 PM	#134
philgump Romantic Necromancer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 29	IMHO This is just my simple opinion. If you have an XY chromosome then you are male if it is YY then you are female. That is it. Simple DNA tests can be done to determine this. Now granted there are certain things that can adversely affect this such as Turner's Syndrome or Klinefelter Syndrome as well as several other unnamed and named X&Y chromosomal disorders. If someone suffers one of these disorders then perhaps I can see where one would say they are trans-sexed. I am under the impression from looking at MaggieL that he/she does not suffer from any of the aforementioned conditions, although I could be wrong. I know this may make some people mad but you can't just choose; there is VERY clear science on what makes a man and what makes a woman. Besides all that. That is not what this whole thing is about it is about the absurdity of having specialized 'Gay Games" if you think about it even sounds absurd. I mean it is a free world and you can do what you want. . . .but I have the right to laugh my ass of at you doing it. Freedom has a bitchy way like that. __________________ PHILGUMP! Last edited by philgump; 11-16-2002 at 08:02 PM.

11-15-2002, 03:47 PM	#130
Beletseri Yeah sez you Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 206	My personal belief is that you are more defined by what is in your brain (what you think you are and what you are attracted to) than by any dangly bits or the lack thereof. As for hermaphrodites, what gender does your friend identify with?

11-16-2002, 08:09 PM	#135
Beletseri Yeah sez you Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 206	Here is the origin of the bits. http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/sexdev.html As you can see, it isn't as simple as XX XY, Oh and Philgump, you might want to make use of the edit function.

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