The best and worst of 2004

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by tw

Lookout123. An honest and Christian man would have immediately condemned the president for sitting on his ass. But a Christian extremist has a political agenda.../snip/

If Lookout123 was logical, he would have addressed that problem.../snip/

Lookout123 - you don't like these facts? Then tell us that George Jr screwed up big time...

ok, so you didn't really answer me last time, are you saying that i am a christian extremist merely because i disagree with you? by that token, why don't you label Wolf as a pagan extremist, or UT as an atheist extremist? is it because those don't seem as inflamatory? or should i really feel ashamed that you have called me out as a person with a christ centered faith?

you claim that i am illogical, yet you are the one that is name calling just because someone disagrees with your view of events. how logical is that? how rational and free of emotional overtones are your arguments? do you think your posts are bitchslapping me around? i believe i have seen you post in other threads that real men post without emotion or malice, they use only logic which sets them apart from boys. i don't know if that is true or not, but i do know that your posts are far from being emotion free.

so last shot here, tw. are you saying that i am a christian extremist because i disagree with you, or do you have evidence of me condemning others for not sharing my beliefs? it's got to be one or the other.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by tw

Now I am completely confused. Either 'good and evil' exists or it does not. If it does, then how can the 'evil' also claim god is on their side? After all, 'good vs evil' means god has taken sides.

Backing up, are we?

OK, good and evil are concepts that are strictly a matter of perspective. Let me give you an example:

A Fundamentalist Christian would say that an actual sacrifice of a living being to God is evil, based on New Testament law. (This belief is open to a bunch of argument that I won't get into here, so please, masses, don't jump all over this.) They would say that some deeds, like helping people and being kind are "good".

Now a Satanist might believe that sacrificing a goat to their god is good, and that doing what other people think are good things is evil. (I don't know, I have no clue about what Satanists believe, so cut me some slack here.)

So you see, TW, good and evil DO exist, but it's ALL a matter of perspective.

Ok, you don't always see things in 'good or evil'. However you do see things - some things - in 'good vs evil'. How can you do this when 'evil' always has an alternative perspective? IOW to see evil, one must always deny the other's perspective. And that other perspective says, "god is on our side".

Perspective, as we're using it here, is a synonym for "morals". My morals may be different from yours, because I may have a different perspective than you.

It's a "good" thing to try to look at all situations from different points of view... I think it helps you to make better choices. But I have to make choices based upon my morals, my perspective.

Second, why are you taking insult? I assume you are taking offense at something but I see no reason why.

I'm taking insult because you are putting words in my mouth and attributing things I didn't say to me. That is an insult to me. It is offensive to me. It might not bother you, but try looking at it from my perspective.

Where is this need for an apology? There is no reason to be insulted in any discussion of facts.

Well, the fact is, I didn't say (or define) like you said I did. So the fact is, you lied about me. You may not see the need for an apology.

It's a matter of perspective.

[tw]

Well, the fact is, I didn't say (or define) like you said I did. So the fact is, you lied about me. You may not see the need for an apology.

First we start with your last point. I posted as I understood your statements. Only a child would be insulted by that observation. An adult who is more concerned about knowledge, instead, welcomes the comment so that she can correct the misinterpretation. Again, no reason for apology because we are suppose to be adult here. You should be welcoming the oppurtunity to correct what you perceive is wrong. Instead you take a simplistic 'good verse evil' approach. Therefore you are insulted and demand an apology.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

OK, good and evil are concepts that are strictly a matter of perspective. Let me give you an example:

A Fundamentalist Christian would say that an actual sacrifice of a living being to God is evil, based on New Testament law. (This belief is open to a bunch of argument that I won't get into here, so please, masses, don't jump all over this.) They would say that some deeds, like helping people and being kind are "good".

Now a Satanist might believe that sacrificing a goat to their god is good, and that doing what other people think are good things is evil. (I don't know, I have no clue about what Satanists believe, so cut me some slack here.)

OK. The best thing that could happen in the Balkan and in the Middle East was (is) for more people to die on the side that is suffering less casulties. Human sacrifices. That both was the Seribans and is the Israelis. Suddenly peace breaks out as a result. People suddenly will do anything necessary to have no such wars ever again.

Now you tell me. Am I Satanic or the best Christian you ever met? After all, the status quo and attempts to minimize death in both conditions has only resulted in more death and suffering from continued hatred. How to elimiinate your Satan? Human sacrifices. This is (unfortunately) a well proven lesson from history. I have advocated more death (in the short term) to cause less overall death and destruction (in the long term).

Am I Satanic or Christian? Am I good or evil? Or is there (again) no such thing as 'good verses evil'? Once we eliminate the religious parables about 'good and evil', then all that remains is different perspectives. You tell me? I have just advocated lessons from history - human sacrifice to cause more "good".

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by tw

First we start with your last point. I posted as I understood your statements. Only a child would be insulted by that observation. An adult who is more concerned about knowledge, instead, welcomes the comment so that she can correct the misinterpretation. Again, no reason for apology because we are suppose to be adult here. You should be welcoming the oppurtunity to correct what you perceive is wrong. Instead you take a simplistic 'good verse evil' approach. Therefore you are insulted and demand an apology.

Ah. We're supposed to be adults, yet to attribute things to me I did not say. In print, I believe this is called "libel". When I point out to you what you did, instead of simply apologizing and moving on, "Gee, I'm sorry Onyx, what I meant was..." you now infer I'm a child and shouldn't have been offended by your libelous remarks. Well unfortunetly, I'm human, TW. I have feelings, I'm not ashamed of them. I don't believe they make me any less mature. And I would like an apology.

OK. The best thing that could happen in the Balkan and in the Middle East was (is) for more people to die on the side that is suffering less casulties. Human sacrifices. That both was the Seribans and is the Israelis. Suddenly peace breaks out as a result. People suddenly will do anything necessary to have no such wars ever again.

I have no idea what in the hell you are talking about. Next?

Now you tell me. Am I Satanic or the best Christian you ever met?

First, I've never met you. Second, as far as I can tell you are neither. There are seldom very clear cut blacks and whites in the real world.

After all, the status quo and attempts to minimize death in both conditions has only resulted in more death and suffering from continued hatred.

And? Are you asking if hatred is evil? I'd say generally, yes.

How to elimiinate your Satan? Human sacrifices.

My Satan? WTF? DUDE...step away from the pipe....

This is (unfortunately) a well proven lesson from history. I have advocated more death (in the short term) to cause less overall death and destruction (in the long term).

Uh...ok....?

Am I Satanic or Christian? Am I good or evil?

I don't know. You tell me.

Or is there (again) no such thing as 'good verses evil'?

Of course there is.

Once we eliminate the religious parables about 'good and evil', then all that remains is different perspectives.

Without a religious basis, you tell me the definition of good and the definition of evil. Make sure you do not refer to any religious tenets.

You tell me? I have just advocated lessons from history - human sacrifice to cause more "good".

And what is your point? I stated in the previous post it's a matter of perspective? What are you droning on and on and on about? Why don't you answer lookouts post?

[OnyxCougar]

and by the way, tee...

This is (unfortunately) a well proven lesson from history. I have advocated more death (in the short term) to cause less overall death and destruction (in the long term).

Isn't that exactly what George W Bush advocated in Iraq? More death in the short term to cause less overall death and destruction in the long term (ie Saddam gassing, experimenting on, and torturing his own people)...

Careful. Starting to sound like an MBA....

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Without a religious basis, you tell me the definition of good and the definition of evil. Make sure you do not refer to any religious tenets.

The problem with designing an ethical structure without religion is that people are too short-sighted to follow it. I mean why do you think eating beef is a hindu proscription?

Any form of Provisional Ethics(tm), which I'm in favor of, is going to take a lot of work and has to be subject to review and revision. That is the problem with religious ethics, no review or revision.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Everyone knows there is good and evil, they just can't agree how to sort things into one or the other.

[OnyxCougar]

Actually, I challenged him to do it because it's so hard to do. Most ideas of "good" and "evil" that pervade in ANY culture are usually based upon religious beliefs in that culture.

[OnyxCougar]

And this quote about the "rather secret" Diego Garcia....from CNN.com

HONOLULU, Hawaii (AP) -- Location and underwater topography helped protect the strategic U.S. military base on the remote island of Diego Garcia from the killer tsunami that raced across the Indian Ocean.

Pacific Fleet officials in Honolulu said Navy facilities and operations on the tiny British-governed atoll were not affected by the December 26 earthquake or the tsunami it caused. Ships stationed at the base have been sent to Southeast Asia to help the relief effort.

"Favorable ocean topography minimized the tsunami's impact on the atoll," the Navy said on its Web site for the base.

An air and naval refueling station that is home to about 4,000 U.S. personnel and support staff, Diego Garcia is the only U.S. military base in the Indian Ocean, with a deep, sheltered harbor to accommodate submarines and warships and a 2 1/4-mile long runway. During the 2003 Iraq war, B-2 stealth bombers flew missions from the base.

The atoll is in the Chagos Archipelago west of the Chagos Trench, a 400-mile-long underwater canyon that runs north and south and plunges to depths of more than 15,000 feet in some areas. The trench is one of the deepest regions of the Indian Ocean.

"The depth of the Chagos Trench and grade to the shores does not allow for tsunamis to build before passing the atoll," the Navy said. "The result of the earthquake was seen as a tidal surge estimated at 6 feet."

A tsunami is a movement of water extending deep below the surface, and a sloping sea floor would force huge amounts of water upward toward a shore.

In addition to the topography of the sea floor around the atoll, its location meant Diego Garcia wasn't in the direct path of the tsunami, said Gerard Fryer, a University of Hawaii geophysicist and an adviser to state civil defense.

Diego Garcia is nearly 2,000 miles from the epicenter of the magnitude 9.0 quake that caused the tsunami.

The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center in Hawaii notified the U.S. Pacific Command soon after the quake, said a spokeswoman for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

[Roosta]

Good and evil do exist regardless of religious leanings. My wife could testify to this the night I farted into one of her soft toys and gave it to her to cuddle up to in bed. And I don't believe in God!

[Kitsune]

Roosta wins the thread.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by Roosta

Good and evil do exist regardless of...

I salute you sir!

[wolf]

I found this article today.

It seems to be the Islamic Equivalent of the Weekly World News classic "Satan's Face Seen in WTC Explosion" and "Satan's Face Seen in Killer Tornado.

[Roosta]

I don't know about you, but I can't see how that even resembles the text in the inset picture. For all we know, it could say "underpants" in Norwegian!

[wolf]

True. I can't see the sacred squiggle either, but I am an infidel.

Perhaps Satan's Face is just that much more photgenic.

Oh, and it would say "underbukse," which you can just make out on the upper left of the image ...