The Draft

[Radar]

Of course I dont see it as the palestinians militants hiding amongst civilians....after all....they live in crowded cramped towns grown up out of the squalor of refugee camps where everyone, civilian and militant alike is in constant fear of attack.

Of course you don't see it that way. You deny the truth. Nobody is forcing Palestinians to live in refugee camps. They could live in palaces if they chose. They'd just have to develop their own land, open their own businesses, and leave their Israeli neighbors alone. Israel isn't stopping the Palestinians from living peacefully on their own land and thriving, only the Palestinians are preventing peace and choosing to live in abject poverty.

When Ancient Rome ruled the world they used to engage in a practice of punishing entire regions for the misdemeanors of a few.

We're not talking about a few. We're talking about hundreds of unprovoked attacks murdering thousands of innocent women and children. Israel does not target women and children and avoids them whenever possible.

SO I can come round to your house, kick your ass and steal your TV, coz hey, I'm the victor, bitch.

The phrase "to the victor goes the spoils pertains to war". But if your country beats my country, and takes it over, yes, you could take my stuff. But since we're both in the same country and this country recognizes and protects my rights, I don't have to worry about that. But even if we didn't live in any government and you came over to rob me, I'd kick the shit out of you, take your wallet and throw your broken body into the gutter where it belongs.

Yeah, can't they see the parallel of building a big wall along the border to keep their citizens from escaping the living hell that -- uh --

Israel is building a wall to keep bad people out, not to keep good people in. Israel will allow anyone to exit, but only good people to enter.

It's Fascism I tell you! What do you mean 10% of the Israeli government representatives are Arabs?

If Israel only had one arab member of their government, it would be more than the number of Jews in all of the Arab governments combined.

[DanaC]

We're talking about hundreds of unprovoked attacks murdering thousands of innocent women and children

If we are talking about recent years I think we are talking about the deaths of hundreds of women and children. The deaths of palestinians however can be measured in the thousands.

The numbers simply dont add up. Its like watching a goliath batter the hell out of a cripple and then having the Goliath cry havoc because the cripple kicked him in the shin.

In all this talk we havent evenmentioned the many Arab Israelis. Those living within Israel and participating in its "democracy" ....During the war against Saddam's forces there was a huge fear in Jerusalem that Saddam launch a gas attack on Israel. The government issued gasmasks and safety equipment to all Jewish citizens but withheld them from their Arab population. Fascism in action. How did they make sure the Arabs didnt get them? Did they make them wear a Cresent on their shirts?

[Radar]

The numbers simply dont add up. Its like watching a goliath batter the hell out of a cripple and then having the Goliath cry havoc because the cripple kicked him in the shin.

Blowing up women and children who have been specifically targeted is hardly a kick in the shin, and and you attempt to make light of the fact that it is not Goliath who is starting the fight but rather defending himself. The strength of the person attacking him is irrelevant.

And if even if Goliath has the patience of a saint, he would not allow himself to be kicked in the shin hundreds of times without crushing the person who is doing it. Hit me and I'll hit you harder. Hit me again, and I'll hit you still harder. Hit me a hundred more times and I'll kill you and be done with the hitting.

Also the guy who kicks Goliath runs and hides behind a bunch of women and children who HE (the kicker) has put into danger. The kicker alone is responsible for any pain, death, or destruction that harms them.

The kicker has no valid room to complain if he keeps kicking. If he wants to stop getting beaten badly by Goliath, all he has to do is stop kicking.

[Undertoad]

We debunked this two years ago.

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/arti...m?articleid=439

"The usual fatality count quoted in news articles presents an inaccurate and distorted picture of the al-Aqsa conflict, exaggerating Israel’s responsibility for the death of noncombatant civilians. For example, our database shows a total of 561 Israelis killed, compared to around 1499 Palestinians, up to 30 June 2002 – numbers in general agreement with media reports (see Graph 1.1).

"But such numbers distort the true picture: They lump combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel. Correcting for such distortions, we can arrive at a figure of 579 Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel, compared to 433 Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians."

[jinx]

Originally posted by Radar


Israel does not target women and children and avoids them whenever possible.

.

I don't think they try very hard though.

[Radar]

Don't fault Israel for having more firepower when someone starts shit with 'em. If you try to shoot me with a 9mm, you can't complain when I put a hole through you large enough to see daylight with a Desert Eagle .50 cal

I don't think they try very hard though.

They saw the tank coming and didn't move. That's not murder, it's suicide.

[DanaC]

Whichever way you look at it the Israelis have killed more Palestinian civilians than they have lost on their own side. I dont deny that every single one of those Israeli deaths is a tragic loss. Nor do I deny that the Israeli people are living day after day with an unremitting fear of suicide attacks. ....The suffering of the Palestinian people however, is so extreme as to make most of the world look on in horror at what is being done.

The media reportage in the West is routinely accused by Israel of being biased against them yet outside of America and Israel most people consider that the media is unfairly levelling the situation , suggesting it is a 50- 50 line of fault when in reality the Israeli state is conducting a campaign of terror and pacification of a conquered people.

You only have to watch a little footage of Israeli soldiers as they pace up and down exuding menace to quell the growing storm to see this is a force policing a different people to their own.

You only have to read the reports coming in from Human Rights watch, amnesty international and other NGO's to see that the Palestinians are being grievously provoked. Whatis the Palestinian child to think when they have seen their brothers dragged from their beds at night? What about the children who were present when one of their schoolmates was shot , quite coldly by an Israeli sniper? Or the Child who was targetted in his yard?
Qossay Abu 'Aisha, 12, was playing in his yard in the Askar neighbourhood of Nablus. The yard is surrounded by a two-metre high tin fence. Israeli soldiers, part of the force that has reoccupied the city, opened fire, punctured the fence and hit him with two bullets, killing him instantly

What about the Palestinians whose villages are cut off from their workplaces by road blocks? Whose wives are unable to travel in an ambulance to the hostpital during birth complications because Ambulances have been refused access to their area?

Radar screaming about Israel's right to kick the shit out of the Palestinians if they want on account of the Militants using them as shields does not in anyway lessen my view that the Palestinian people are a conquered race who are being humiliated and tormented daily by their conqueror. So..what are they to do about it? They tried to beg help of the world and we turned our backs on them. They cannot fight the army soldier for soldier because that requires an army, and an army requires resources, funding, equipment, suplies....How can a people whose lands have been so segmented from one another that they cannot travel from one part of Palestine to another without passing Israeli roadlocks possibly gather a conventional army to rival their conqueror's?

They cannot even effect basic law and order because their security forces and goverment infrastructure has been decimated

The Israelis admit they do not check houses before they bulldoze them . There are cases of houses coming down with people still in them. One woman ....a pregnant woman stood in front of the bulldozers. She thought the fact she was pregnant would afford her a measure of protection. How wrong she was. How wrong she was to think the Israeli army would even view her as as human life worth saving. Palestinian lives are worth less than Israelis. Israeli soldiers would rather kill a dozen palestinian civilians if there is even a hint that ther may be danger ahead to their troops. There is no sense whatsoever in the reports coming out of Janin and other hotspots that the Israeli army make any attempt to safeguard the lives of palestinian civilians , certainly not women and children.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by Radar
They saw the tank coming and didn't move. That's not murder, it's suicide.

Damn suicides.

[jinx]

Originally posted by Radar

They saw the tank coming and didn't move. That's not murder, it's suicide.

Originally posted by Radar
and avoids them whenever possible.

[DanaC]

suspicion is growing amongst many that Israel is killiong palestinians and then lying to say it was in response to militant fire, or that reports of miltant hamas activiy in that area provoked their attacks. There are even some human rights campaigners who believe that the Israeli government is bringing undesirable political palestinian figures to palestinian houses, executing them and then claiming a firefight to cover it up. Then they show lots of footage of the bullet ridden activists and Israel feels a little safer for an hour or so.....
Of course thats just for ya low level Hamas activists.....people who are politically active....Not necessarily the big fish..No for the big fish they whip out the rockets....Rockets against a man in a wheelchair.....or the devastation of a block of flats because it houses a militant leader.....Sledgehammer to crack a walnut. What a disgraceful lack of regard for human life. And if Radar comes back with the lack of regard that the militants showed, the difference is one is a group of militant extremists at the margins of the fight for freedom and national identity andthe other is a STATE army. The State of Israel is engaged in the slaughter of civilians in what it considers to be its own lands. .....The State of Israel conducts reprisals against the general population of teeming refugee camps/towns.

[Undertoad]

Whichever way you look at it the Israelis have killed more Palestinian civilians than they have lost on their own side.

It doesn't matter because it's not a simple numbers game. It's also an ethics game. You keep leaving out that the houses they thoughtlessly demolish are those of the families of the suicide bombers, which they do because there is no other deterrence known. Rachel Corrie was defending against Israel closing off tunnels into Gaza through which arms were transferred. You leave this shit out why? Details not important?

[DanaC]

You leave this shit out why? Details not important?

Yah, my bad. I tend to go for broad strokes andthen go find the details later ;P

As to the families of the suicide bombers....given that this hasnt actually acted as a deterrent ( unless I am very much mistaken) why make them suffer more than they already have? They just lost a family member to the war. For those families their loved one died for their country just as any soldier in a recognised state.

I dont see that the Palestinians have much else to throw at their oppressor except themselves. That they target soft targets may be due to the fact that they can make no mark against such a strong and well equipped army. If it is legitimate for Israel to disregard Palestinian lives if it serves their purpose ( Israeli Security) why do Palestinians not have the same right to diregard Israeli civilians lives? Why is it alright that the Israeli army put the safety of their soldiers before Palestinian lives, but Palestinian militants are supposed to avoid killing the only targets they have the capability to reach and refrain from conducting the only kind of attack that hurts Israel. Since there is clearly a war going on why do we consider one side criminal and the other not?

Its a messy situation. I dont know what I migt think if I was living in the region. Fortunately i am not and am therefore able to take a step back and see that there are two "nations" fightng a war of survival against each other. If thats the case. Then I genuinely see the Palestinian militants as soldiers defending their homeland. They say all is fair in love and war . If Israel wants the suicide bombings to stop, perhaps it should cease launching offensives at the other side's "army".

I will add to this a little caveat. I dont see the death of an Israeli civilian as a good thing. Its another lost life in a region that has seen far too much of death and loss on all sides. I also recognise how close to the surface the fear of anti semitism must be. Indeed I think fascism in Europe is rising. There is reason to fear the rise of anti semitism in the world generally. But the Palestinians also have a right to their fear. They are suffering

[DanaC]

Rachel Corrie was defending against Israel closing off tunnels into Gaza through which arms were transferred

......actually
She was with other activists from the International Solidarity Movement trying to stop the demolition of a Palestinian building in the Rafah refugee camp.

(taken from the BBC News website )
The Israelis say such tactics are necessary because Palestinian gunmen use the structures as cover to shoot at their troops patrolling in the area.

Ms Corrie - who was wearing an orange fluorescent jacket to alert the bulldozer drivers to her presence in pictures taken by her colleagues ..... had previously described the hazards of her work.

An email despatch details a confrontation on 14 February between another bulldozer and her own group, which she refers to as the "internationals".

"The internationals stood in the path of the bulldozer and were physically pushed with the shovel backwards, taking shelter in a house.

"The bulldozer then proceeded on its course, demolishing one side of the house with the internationals inside," she wrote in the email distributed by the International Solidarity Movement.


Ms Corrie's mother Cindy said her daughter had spent nights sleeping at wells to protect them from bulldozers.

"She lived with families whose houses were threatened with demolition and today as we understand it, she stood for three hours trying to protect a house."

[DanaC]

You keep leaving out that the houses they thoughtlessly demolish are those of the families of the suicide bombers, which they do because there is no other deterrence known.

They do bulldoze the homes of suicide bombers' families....But they also bulldoze the houses of people who arent the families of suicide bombers ( yet)

and so far, how much of a deterrent would you say this posthumous punishment is proving to be?

[elSicomoro]

Let's see if The Evasive Wifebuyer will reveal just how the land became Israel's...this should be good.