What would Martin Niemoller think about Arizona? - Page 8

jinx · 04-28-2010, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud

Presently, I am seeing families torn apart, and people fleeing from violence. I am seeing the complex, and completely intertwined relationships--business, economic, social, and familial that form across the border. I don't particularly want illegal aliens here, but I decry the simplistic approach of just "securing the borders" or "sending them all back to where they came from."

The level of violence is almost unreal... must be terrifying.
Help me understand what is tearing families apart. Is there anything stopping people from crossing the border as frequently as they want? I understand it's gotta be inconvenient*, but it's not like it's new or anything.... that border has been there longer than most of the people crossing it have been alive.

I don't particularly want illegal aliens here either... it's not so much the 'undocumented workers' I have a problem with, it's the violent gang-bangers from mexico and central america that have no intention of being anything but a danger to the rest of us that really bug me... But at the same time, I think that if the border was actually secure I would have no problem offering amnesty to every illegal alien in the country that goes and gets signed up with Social Security immediately. But we can't have what's going on now, with the uncontrolled border and welfare state together. The math just doesn't work - see not enough $$ to train AZ cops properly etc.

*I just watched a show about a Canadian border town, border right down the middle of town, residents having to cross several times a day. Prior to 911 they just waved to Bob at the gate, now it's a whole thing with security everywhere. Pain in the ass but they seem to have a sense of humor about it, on both sides.

Griff · 04-29-2010, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

I don't particularly want illegal aliens here either... it's not so much the 'undocumented workers' I have a problem with, it's the violent gang-bangers from mexico and central america that have no intention of being anything but a danger to the rest of us that really bug me... But at the same time, I think that if the border was actually secure I would have no problem offering amnesty to every illegal alien in the country that goes and gets signed up with Social Security immediately.

The bottom line is that until we find a sensible alternative to the drug war we won't have a reasonable chance of resolving the illegal immigration issue.

Pie · 04-29-2010, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff

The bottom line is that until we find a sensible alternative to the drug war we won't have a reasonable chance of resolving the illegal immigration issue.

Quoted for truth.

jinx · 04-29-2010, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff

The bottom line is that until we find a sensible alternative to the drug war we won't have a reasonable chance of resolving the illegal immigration issue.

I'd love to hear one.
Personally, I'd like to see home-grown drugs (specifically pot, no one should be dying or going to jail over pot) controls relaxed, freeing up money to spend on stopping the imported poison. Asking nicely won't work unfortunately.

The various wars in central america have sent us millions of people, many trained guerilla fighters with no other skills. What are we supposed to do about this?

Sheldonrs · 04-29-2010, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

...The various wars in central america have sent us millions of people, many trained guerilla fighters with no other skills. What are we supposed to do about this?

Well since they are already trained, let's give them teaching credentials and set them up in our inner city schools.
It might improve test scores.

Griff · 05-01-2010, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

I'd love to hear one.
Personally, I'd like to see home-grown drugs (specifically pot, no one should be dying or going to jail over pot) controls relaxed, freeing up money to spend on stopping the imported poison. Asking nicely won't work unfortunately.

This is a good place to start. Stiff pot taxes could pay for a lot of anti-chemical programming.

Cloud · 04-28-2010, 04:54 PM

(happy)

Flint · 04-28-2010, 04:57 PM

Hall of Fame

xoxoxoBruce · 04-28-2010, 05:22 PM

Don't forget it's not just Mexicans. Mexico is the highway into the US for people from all over Central and South America.

Flint · 04-28-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Don't forget it's not just Mexicans. Mexico is the highway into the US for people from all over Central and South America.

You're right, it would be more racially sensitive and politically correct to use the inclusive term "brown people" in this case.

xoxoxoBruce · 04-29-2010, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

You're right, it would be more racially sensitive and politically correct to use the inclusive term "brown people" in this case.

No.

Quote:

"The fact of the matter is, undocumented folks are literally from the four corners of the planet," says Arturo Venegas, a former Sacramento, Calif., police chief and the project director of the Law Enforcement Engagement Initiative, which opposes the Arizona measure. Illegal aliens can be blond Brits or black Jamaicans or olive-skinned Mexicans. And while this last description may apply to most of the undocumented in Arizona, it's not very helpful either.

link

Shawnee123 · 04-28-2010, 06:06 PM

I can get pretty brown in the summer. I object!

classicman · 05-03-2010, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

You mean the legally mandated wage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

Whats the percentage that fly in versus every other means?

I'm all for prosecuting and penalizing both parties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Why do percentages matter? Gotta get them all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

Really? If we solved, hypothetically 90% of this problem you'd still be dissatisfied?

You chose to make jokes or ignore the questions. Thats your choice. Have at it.

Spexxvet · 05-04-2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

You chose to make jokes or ignore the questions. Thats your choice. Have at it.

I accept your apology.

Cloud · 04-28-2010, 08:52 PM

it is certainly much harder now, and more harrowing to travel--in Juarez, not here. There's a lot of movement around, as people are moving their families here, or moving some of them around from outlying areas, like Fort Hancock. Certainly the violence has puts a toll on families and caused untold suffering and separations, but I'm thinking more in terms of families where the parents are here and are the breadwinners, but illegal, but their children were born here. The kids are citizens--what should they do when the parents are arrested and deported? I'm sure there are other scenarios, and I suppose some of you will simply say, well, they weren't supposed to be here at all, send them and their kids back. But back into a war zone?

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't agree that these people don't have rights, or that we should just dismiss them without considering the human viewpoint.

04-28-2010, 04:54 PM	#7
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	(happy) __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

04-28-2010, 04:57 PM	#8
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Hall of Fame __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

04-28-2010, 05:22 PM	#9
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Don't forget it's not just Mexicans. Mexico is the highway into the US for people from all over Central and South America. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

04-28-2010, 06:06 PM	#12
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	I can get pretty brown in the summer. I object! __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

04-28-2010, 08:52 PM	#15
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	it is certainly much harder now, and more harrowing to travel--in Juarez, not here. There's a lot of movement around, as people are moving their families here, or moving some of them around from outlying areas, like Fort Hancock. Certainly the violence has puts a toll on families and caused untold suffering and separations, but I'm thinking more in terms of families where the parents are here and are the breadwinners, but illegal, but their children were born here. The kids are citizens--what should they do when the parents are arrested and deported? I'm sure there are other scenarios, and I suppose some of you will simply say, well, they weren't supposed to be here at all, send them and their kids back. But back into a war zone? I don't know what the answer is, but I don't agree that these people don't have rights, or that we should just dismiss them without considering the human viewpoint. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

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