The Federal Government Has No Immigration Powers

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by jinx

Do they keep any stats on how many get under the table jobs and send the money home versus how many join gangs and sell drugs?

That would be a bit hard to track. There is information about how much money goes out vs stays here to be taxed.

"It was not uncommon for the illegal aliens to make it clear that they were here for one purpose and one purpose alone, to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible and send it all home."
http://www.newswithviews.com/Cutler/michael23.htm

On Gangs:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200805/world-in-numbers

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by jinx

Do they keep any stats on how many get under the table jobs and send the money home versus how many join gangs and sell drugs?

Jinx, about half way down. The money trail with refernces for the data:

http://immigrationcounters.com/datasource.html

[TheMercenary]

Huge problem:

http://www.urban.org/publications/410366.html

[Cicero]

"looter mentality".......I like that. That's true sometimes. Not all the time. But definately sometimes...

[fargon]

Damn Radar who you think you are TW?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Radar

Let's subtract the 38,500 undocumented immigrants from this number to get 2,220,483. The U.S. Population is 301,139,947. Subtract 20 million for undocumented immigrants so you have 281,139,947. This means we have 789 American citizens per 1000 in the population who are criminals. There are 193 undocumented immigrants per 1000 in the population of undocumented immigrants who are criminals.

I doubt that 78.9% of the population are criminals - just sayin.....

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar
Let's subtract the 38,500 undocumented immigrants from this number to get 2,220,483. The U.S. Population is 301,139,947. Subtract 20 million for undocumented immigrants so you have 281,139,947. This means we have 789 American citizens per 1000 in the population who are criminals. There are 193 undocumented immigrants per 1000 in the population of undocumented immigrants who are criminals.

Originally Posted by classicman

I doubt that 78.9% of the population are criminals - just sayin.....

Yea, he has a problem with math.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Yea, he has a problem with math.

No, just missing a couple of zeros. It's per hundred thousand.

[Cicero]

Most of the ones that used to work where I worked in the past aren't contributing because they can't. Their only documents are fake. This means that they got a hold of someone's legitimate record and are paying in under someone elses tax id. Or what they are giving is completely fake and giving out a random number. Most of them aren't dumb enough to do that. Then there are the ones working under the table. This makes statistics for the documented workers null and void. I used to go to work knowing that I didn't know any of the staffs real names. I am glad they weren't all the same name because that would have sucked.

I find working under an assumed name and number to be highly criminal because that is how I was raised. I can't tell you how much shit has been pulled that I have seen, but it's a lot. If we turned the tables and I started to do any of that, the authorities would be all over my ass for fraud. Being undocumented forces people to do criminal acts to try to be practical and get jobs, cars etc...

That puts people like me that have a responsibility to maintain the books when you have a boss with this kind of hiring practice in place, at odds. And you have several moral questions for yourself when you go home at night, after you find out exactly what you have been doing.

Gathering statistics using documents that are faked or don't exist is crazy-making. I really liked some of the people that were on my team that were "documented". Heh but after being there for awhile I asked and "documented" was true. Just not the whole truth. Sure I have documents. Not mine..but I have them. Well fuc**. Lots of the documented paid for them...not sure where or how.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Most of the ones that used to work where I worked in the past aren't contributing because they can't. Their only documents are fake. This means that they got a hold of someone's legitimate record and are paying in under someone elses tax id. Or what they are giving is completely fake and giving out a random number. Most of them aren't dumb enough to do that. Then there are the ones working under the table. This makes statistics for the documented workers null and void. I used to go to work knowing that I didn't know any of the staffs real names. I am glad they weren't all the same name because that would have sucked.

I find working under an assumed name and number to be highly criminal because that is how I was raised. I can't tell you how much shit has been pulled that I have seen, but it's a lot. If we turned the tables and I started to do any of that, the authorities would be all over my ass for fraud. Being undocumented forces people to do criminal acts to try to be practical and get jobs, cars etc...

That puts people like me that have a responsibility to maintain the books when you have a boss with this kind of hiring practice in place, at odds. And you have several moral questions for yourself when you go home at night, after you find out exactly what you have been doing.

Gathering statistics using documents that are faked or don't exist is crazy-making. I really liked some of the people that were on my team that were "documented". Heh but after being there for awhile I asked and "documented" was true. Just not the whole truth. Sure I have documents. Not mine..but I have them. Well fuc**. Lots of the documented paid for them...not sure where or how.

It doesn't matter if they are contributing to the tax base under someone else's social security #. They pay income taxes into the system and they rarely if ever collect from any social programs (other than public education...which they help pay for). Those taxes are used just like anyone who is a natural born citizen, or a documented immigrant. These people never collect from social security either, yet they pay billions into it.

Working under an assumed name or number is most certainly not criminal. If you believe it to be, you must have been raise poorly.

I have a right to work anonymously. I have a right to travel anonymously. If I want to call myself Uncle Sam and work for lemonade rather than money, or I want to work for cash, I have a right to do so and no other person or government has any right to any of what I've earned.

Unlike you, I was raised to know that stealing what others earn is wrong. Income taxes are theft.

[Cicero]

It's funny that you are all about being patriotic, and you still feel defrauding the government overtly, thereby defrauding the state, and your co-workers, and new country is ok.

As long as someone is paying in, the criminal act isn't criminal? I'm done talking to you. You are a completely illogical nut-bag.

Using someone elses name for documentation is criminal no matter how you slice it, in this country. Using their designated number is also criminal.

You are starting to seem like an advocate of criminality, and fraud, more than just an insane asshole. I have met a lot of undocumented advocates..you are the worst however, because you don't give a shit about breaking the systems in place or the law.
I really can't even entertain a flame war with someone that is so far out there.

Get your metal hat on as I think the aliens have melted your brain. Too insane for me. I'm out.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Cicero

It's funny that you are all about being patriotic, and you still feel defrauding the government overtly, thereby defrauding the state, and your co-workers, and new country is ok.

Your reasoning also proves that prohibition failed only because we did not enforce the laws. Reality - the only problem was the law.

What happens if we successfully enforce current immigration laws? Economic damage to America. It is already ongoing in the Silicon Valley where not enough immigrants (legal and illegal) can be obtained. Many of those who demand more immigration enforcement are also the reason why we need more immigrants. Those many did not bother to get better educated. As a result, we need more immigrants.

The solution advocated by those many? More of what did not work for prohibition.

What happens where immigration laws are more strongly enforced? As demonstrated in Nebraska and the northern dairy regions of NY State - the economy turned down so greatly that business owners even asked immigration enforcement agents to leave.

How to solve the immigration problem? Increase immigration visa numbers from a few hundred thousand to the millions we need to keep America productive.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by tw

Your reasoning also proves that prohibition failed only because we did not enforce the laws. Reality - the only problem was the law.

What happens if we successfully enforce current immigration laws? Economic damage to America. It is already ongoing in the Silicon Valley where not enough immigrants (legal and illegal) can be obtained. Many of those who demand more immigration enforcement are also the reason why we need more immigrants. Those many did not bother to get better educated. As a result, we need more immigrants.

The solution advocated by those many? More of what did not work for prohibition.

What happens where immigration laws are more strongly enforced? As demonstrated in Nebraska and the northern dairy regions of NY State - the economy turned down so greatly that business owners even asked immigration enforcement agents to leave.

How to solve the immigration problem? Increase immigration visa numbers from a few hundred thousand to the millions we need to keep America productive.

TW is correct. If we simply did the right thing and allowed a free flow of immigrants to come here as easily as the Irish, German, Dutch, French, English, Italian, etc. immigrants did...(just show up, sign your name, and make sure you don't have small pox) We wouldn't have any immigrants sneaking over the border. They'd walk right through the front door, get legal id's, get auto insurance, use their own social security numbers, and pay even more taxes.

The only thing preventing these people from using their own social security numbers or getting legal identification are the same idiots who complain about them not having any. They demand that government not allow them to get ID, but at the same time whine when they use someone else's.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Cicero

It's funny that you are all about being patriotic, and you still feel defrauding the government overtly, thereby defrauding the state, and your co-workers, and new country is ok.

None of the undocumented immigrants is defrauding the state or co-workers, or the country. The American government on the other hand is defrauding the American people, the immigrants who come here with or without papers, and countries all over the world.

The American government is exercising powers it does not legitimately have. It is writing and enforcing laws that are a direct violation of the U.S. Constitution.

Originally Posted by Cicero

As long as someone is paying in, the criminal act isn't criminal? I'm done talking to you. You are a completely illogical nut-bag.

In this case, the criminal act is on the part of the government violating the Constitution and illegally deporting people. You are a complete idiot who knows nothing whatsoever about the Constitution or what it means to be an American. You just run your mouth off about shit you have no clue about and make outrageous claims that you can't back up.

Originally Posted by Cicero

Using someone elses name for documentation is criminal no matter how you slice it, in this country. Using their designated number is also criminal.

Deporting undocumented immigrants from America is a criminal act no matter how you slice it. They are not violating any legitimate laws by coming here, and are forced into using someone else's social security number to get work. They are still paying income taxes (another illegal part of government) and are paying billions more than they use in services. If the government commits a criminal act against someone, they have a take whatever steps they must to defend against that illegal action. For instance, if the government sends people to my house to take my guns away from me, I have the right to kill those who come to do it. Normally killing another person is wrong, but if they are violating my rights, it's no longer a crime. If the government is violating the rights of undocumented immigrants, preventing them from getting legal identification, preventing them from working without that documentation, illegally deporting people, etc. these people are within their rights to avoid such illegal action on the part of the government by putting someone else's number on their paperwork. The fault lies with the government, not with these people and only an idiot would even hint otherwise. This of course includes you.

Originally Posted by Cicero

You are starting to seem like an advocate of criminality, and fraud, more than just an insane asshole.

I could say the same thing about you. You support fraud, violence, and treason on the part of the government. You support illegal laws and illegal organizations to enforce them. You're not only an insane asshole, but a pathetic moron too.

Originally Posted by Cicero

I have met a lot of undocumented advocates..you are the worst however, because you don't give a shit about breaking the systems in place or the law.
I really can't even entertain a flame war with someone that is so far out there.

You are correct. I have absolutely no problem in violating illegal laws that the government has absolutely zero authority to create or enforce. But it is you who are "out there". I'm right here with the founders of America who prohibited the federal government from creating or enforcing immigration laws. I've just got common sense, education, reason, logic, the founders, and the U.S. Constitution on my side and you've got a bunch of redneck, racist, dickheads on yours.

Originally Posted by Cicero

Get your metal hat on as I think the aliens have melted your brain. Too insane for me. I'm out.

They tried to melt your brain, but there was nothing to melt.

Originally Posted by Radar

... The American government is exercising powers it does not legitimately have. It is writing and enforcing laws that are a direct violation of the U.S. Constitution. ...

Since the American government continues to do this, it is self evident that you are impotent to do anything significant about it. You've effectively been reduced to complaining in an internet forum.

... Deporting undocumented immigrants from America is a criminal act no matter how you slice it. They are not violating any legitimate laws by coming here, and are forced into using someone else's social security number to get work. ... If the government commits a criminal act against someone, they have a take whatever steps they must to defend against that illegal action. For instance, if the government sends people to my house to take my guns away from me, I have the right to kill those who come to do it. Normally killing another person is wrong, but if they are violating my rights, it's no longer a crime. ...

Does this mean that undocumented immigrants have the right to kill U.S. citizens sent by the American government to deport them? It would make a fine loophole for terrorists.

... If the government is violating the rights of undocumented immigrants, preventing them from getting legal identification, preventing them from working without that documentation, ...

Does something's not being illegal always mean that a right exists? Even if it is not illegal for undocumented immigrants to be here, does that mean they have a right to these things? What about the convention of public policy (e.g. there are no laws preventing females from serving in front line ground combat units; however, it has been public policy not to put them there)? Where in the Constitution are those rights of undocumented immigrants specifically enumerated?

... I have absolutely no problem in violating illegal laws that the government has absolutely zero authority to create or enforce. ...

That's not a problem, the problem is with extending your position to undocumented immigrants; because, there is no reasonable expectation that they know the basics of the U.S. Constitution and laws derived thereof which are current citizenship requirements. Additionally, there's more to any country than its Constitution (or other) and its body of laws. When someone gives overwhelming weight to just one aspect of a self governing body and prognosticates doomsday if there's any deviation, it is seen as fanaticism by many. Bad things could happen; but, as any psychologist can tell you, past human behavior is not necessarily a reliable indicator of future human behavior.

That my friend is why I relegate you to the category of For Entertainment Use Only even though you are very knowledgeable on the Constitution and I have learned from you. Thanks for sharing.