George "Macacawitz" Allen on Guns

[Aliantha]

You people just don't seem to get that you live in a society that is fearful. You're constantly trying to protect yourselves against something that might happen.

No wonder George thinks it's ok to make pre-emptive strikes on nations which pose no threat. It seems the whole mindset is to protect yourselves against something which might just happen.

You can't control everything, and considering the murder rate in your country, I don't think all the gun toting is doing much good.

If on the other hand your country had a low incidence of gun related crime I'd agree that everyone having guns is a good idea, but until that day comes, there's no way anyone will convince me it is.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You people just don't seem to get that you live in a society that is fearful. You're constantly trying to protect yourselves against something that might happen.

And you're unable to protect yourself from things that DO happen.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You people just don't seem to get that you live in a society that is fearful. You're constantly trying to protect yourselves against something that might happen.

I think you may be over-generalizing a bit. Most places in the US are really very safe. Some folks on this board live or work where that isn't true or they have characteristics which make them targets, so they, sensibly, arm themselves.

Bush has done a great job of rallying fear though, I have to agree with that.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You people just don't seem to get that you live in a society that is fearful. You're constantly trying to protect yourselves against something that might happen.

Ali, Ali, you're being a lot less openminded than you should be. It's not fear we're talking about, much as you insist it should be. It is that we are determined to prevail -- regardless of the degree of force arrayed against us, we are determined to nonetheless prevail over it. We're just a bunch of winners, and we're going to stay that way. And apparently, we are determined in a fashion you can't wrap your mind around -- we do not surrender to wrongdoers. Friendly advice: never demand that of us. It will hurt if you try. You won't like to hurt that much.

No wonder George thinks it's ok to make pre-emptive strikes on nations which pose no threat. It seems the whole mindset is to protect yourselves against something which might just happen.

No threat? Every single intelligence service on the entire planet without a single exception assessed the Saddam regime as within a year or two of some kind of overwhelming weaponry with which to discomfit every friend we had in the region. I say we were right to do something about Saddam Hussein before he became favorably comparable with Hitler. The sole reason anyone can claim "pose no threat" is because we hit them soon enough. Lazy thinking, Aliantha. We've done better foreign policy this Administration than the last, as a perusal of Dereliction of Duty by Patterson might show you. Perhaps bloodier, but more purposive and using better strategy.

You can't control everything, and considering the murder rate in your country, I don't think all the gun toting is doing much good.

If on the other hand your country had a low incidence of gun related crime I'd agree that everyone having guns is a good idea, but until that day comes, there's no way anyone will convince me it is.

Switzerland. The place is stiff with assault rifles in most of its closets, together with 200 rounds ready ammo, and a requirement in some cantons that you have to carry your arms to a polling place to vote -- at least, by statute. And what's the Swiss murder rate?

Our overall national murder rate has spent some time below Scotland's. Outside of certain of our large cities that have suffered zones of urban decay, in which the bulk of murders and gun assaults take place, the murder rate, by any instrumentality, looks more like that of England. And England's murder and crime rates are both on the rise since they took the guns out of private hands, starting in that very year and growing annually. Thanks to England's worsening, we're looking better by the month. And month by month, we hope for our English cousins to finally come to their senses before the whole place looks like A Clockwork Orange.

Aliantha, we've given you truth, in quantity, and you reply with blindness, closemindedness, and non-learning. Just what do you gain by testing our patience? You are wrong to think as you do, Aliantha, and your specific kind of wrongness opens the door, has opened the door, to violent crime and its state-scale equivalent, genocide. Believe me when I say you do not want a pro-genocide mentality; it corrodes the soul.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

It would be a hard thing to quantify, but I have a feeling that more innocent people (unfortunately lots of children) are killed by loaded, accessible guns than are attacking criminals. This whole self-defense thing doesn't fly when you look at the numbers.

You do understand how stupid those two statements sound together, right? You know, since you just said that you yourself had not looked at the numbers, and in fact implied that you believe they don't even exist.

Incidentally, it's not a hard thing to quantify at all: Gun Facts

[wolf]

Again, for the folks who missed it the first half-dozen times ... the majority of defensive uses of firearms involve NO SHOTS FIRED.

Some Accidental Death Stats are available here. These are numbers for 2002.

Accidental Death by Firearm ... total 776. That number is not missing any zeros.

For the same period, aggregate firearms deaths (which includes suicide, homicide, gang violence, shot by police while committing a crime, etc.) 28K and change.

Your car is still more dangerous than my gun.

[JayMcGee]

mmm..... apart from Griff, most pro-ponents of the gun- lobby seem to have resorted to individual insults...... whatever happened to the 'polite armed society'?

[Griff]

maybe cuz you aren't armed?

[Aliantha]

Griff, I agree it was a generalisation, but you did seem to get the point I was making, so that's the main thing.

Wolf, like you say, we're all more likely to be killed by a car, but I think there's a big difference between using vehicular transport because it's a necessary evil, and carrying a leathal weapon just because I might need to use it.

Again... I learned first aid because I may need to use it... wanna' give me shit about it?
People lock their doors because they "may" deter theft... I hope you did not buy new locks when you moved...
IMO, people who actually ruled their lives by statistics are more likely to look a lot like this:


People wash with anti-bacterial soap, but they don't put treads on their tubs and drive instead of flying... they worry about false fears and ignore what kills far more people more often...
Having a gun you know how to use handy is just safer. Hopefully you will never use it... but, hopefully I never had to use my self-defense training or gun... it has not worked-out that way. Glad I had both.

[Aliantha]

I get your point rkz. I just disagree that's all.

Thanks for trying to insult me and anyone else who doesn't agree with your point. Just a point to think about though, while we're on the subject of sheep. Perhaps the same could be said of those who continue to recite the same rhetoric about guns being handy, and being tools, and being a safeguard against possible eventualities.

Perhaps if more people spent more time trying to promote a peaceful society, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Over and out.

I only insulted those who made their decisions, regardless of what they were, based on one criteria... some gun owners do the same thing.
If you took it as though I meant you, you read it incorrectly.

The fact that my weapons have been handy (if you call saving one's life "handy") and are only tools are facts.

A peaceable society and gun ownership are mutually exclusive issues.

[JayMcGee]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

A peaceable society and gun ownership are mutually exclusive issues.

explains a lot.......

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

A peaceable society and gun ownership are mutually exclusive issues.

He may either have left a word out, or maybe was trying rather wildly to say the two issues were essentially separate ones.

A martial-artist mindset in combination with martial-arts skills is a lot like the peaceable but packin' mindset. My experience with martial arts suggests this is not only desirable but a highly likely outcome.

Training in how to fight efficiently, with anything from the two medial knuckles of your fist to a big wet rock to a selective-fire assault rifle, is not a guarantee that you will be made into a predator.

[Aliantha]

I think he may have left out a word, but I'm not so sure...