Dutch Ban Burkas - Page 8

JayMcGee · 11-20-2006, 07:38 PM

Don't think so, Ali. The burka is surely a shield, a sign that says 'I don't want you to know me'.

Aliantha · 11-20-2006, 07:39 PM

And yet thousands of Muslim women get to know each other every day.

Interesting argument, but it doesn't work.

By your logic, Muslim women in Burka's don't know anyone.

Trilby · 11-20-2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

Don't think so, Ali. The burka is surely a shield, a sign that says 'I don't want you to know me'.

Um...do you mean that? Or are you being ironic?

JayMcGee · 11-20-2006, 07:50 PM

No, I wasn't. The burkha is perhaps like the drawbridge.... only let down to known friends. To me, it seems more of a defensive structure than a religeous symbol ( and of course, like the wearing of the cross, it is optional rather than mandatory on religeous grounds). I don't dispute the right of the person to wear it in most circumtances, but I would expect that person to recognise that, in this society, there are times when wearing the burkha is inappropiate.

Aliantha · 11-20-2006, 07:56 PM

Again, by your logic, how would a Muslim woman have friends if wearing a Burka precludes knowing her?

JayMcGee · 11-20-2006, 08:02 PM

Burka's are tradionally worn only in mixed or male company.

Aliantha · 11-20-2006, 08:12 PM

Ahuh...and so when a Muslim woman goes out in public...say, to an event of some kind, taking kids to school even; she can't communicate with anyone right? Because she's wearing a Burka right?

Do you believe that Muslim women only have friends they meet while not wearing their Burka or do you consider it likely that they might make friends when they are too?

I don't think you're making a good argument Jay. Just because you don't think you could communicate wearing a burka or with someone wearing one, doesn't mean that others can't. It is your notions of how one communicates - which are western - that form these ideas. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

DanaC · 11-20-2006, 08:13 PM

Very good point Ali.

JayMcGee · 11-20-2006, 08:30 PM

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself so well. Nine times out of ten, wearing the burha is not a problem. But, now and again, it is a problem. In the UK, this was highlighted by the case of a Burkha'd teacher at a Church of England Priamary school. How would the kids feel? how could they relate to a pair of eyes peering out of a sea of black?

OK, that is the emotional arguement.

Now let's look at the logic.......

Muslim women who choose (it's not mandatory) to wear the Burkha do so out of a sense of modesty - ie they do not wish to enrage the lustfull passions of those males who might be so enflamed by the sight of their visage. TBH, I have yet to see an eight year-old 'turned on' by dimpled cheeks and a friendly smile.

Aliantha · 11-20-2006, 08:33 PM

Little boys are not the only males in a primary school environment.

There are some women here who wouldn't dress like I do because they'd feel uncomfortable showing off their tits that much. I wonder how they'd feel if the government decided that all women must show a certain amount of cleavage because if they don't, they might be hiding something.

It's the same argument. Just a different perspective.

DanaC · 11-20-2006, 08:35 PM

She only wore the veil because there was a mixed sex staff.....that said, on that occassion I think the woman was out of line. Reason being, that she attended her interview at the school without a veil. She was interviewed by a man and obviously decided that with her veil she wouldn't be given the job. Fair enough, I can see her point.....but the people who employed her, as a classroom assistant for children who were learning English as a second language, were therefore not aware of what they were taking on. Given that the children were learning English as a second language, I would have thought that being able to see the mouth shapes of words, would be pretty important.

That was one case. The vast majority of women who wear veils do not find it impeding on their ability to do their job or engage with the world. The trouble is we only really hear about the extreme cases.

Aliantha · 11-20-2006, 08:40 PM

There's heaps of women here who wear veils although not too many that wear burkas. The greatest exposure I've had to women wearing veils etc are in the universities here.

Hubby has quite a few muslim students also and finds them to be valuable members of his classes veil on or off.

DanaC · 11-20-2006, 08:43 PM

There are loads of gals at my uni who wear veils and quite a few who wear the....it's not a burkha but it looks a lot like one. It's black and closer fitting than a burkha...actually they usually look absolutely stunning in them. truly graceful looking piece of kit.

Undertoad · 11-20-2006, 08:43 PM

Well-educated Muslim women are the best possible outcome. Education solves all problems.

DanaC · 11-20-2006, 08:45 PM

I think we are in agreement there.

11-20-2006, 07:38 PM	#106
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	Don't think so, Ali. The burka is surely a shield, a sign that says 'I don't want you to know me'. __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

11-20-2006, 07:39 PM	#107
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	And yet thousands of Muslim women get to know each other every day. Interesting argument, but it doesn't work. By your logic, Muslim women in Burka's don't know anyone. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-20-2006, 07:50 PM	#109
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	No, I wasn't. The burkha is perhaps like the drawbridge.... only let down to known friends. To me, it seems more of a defensive structure than a religeous symbol ( and of course, like the wearing of the cross, it is optional rather than mandatory on religeous grounds). I don't dispute the right of the person to wear it in most circumtances, but I would expect that person to recognise that, in this society, there are times when wearing the burkha is inappropiate. __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

11-20-2006, 07:56 PM	#110
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Again, by your logic, how would a Muslim woman have friends if wearing a Burka precludes knowing her? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-20-2006, 08:02 PM	#111
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	Burka's are tradionally worn only in mixed or male company. __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

11-20-2006, 08:12 PM	#112
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Ahuh...and so when a Muslim woman goes out in public...say, to an event of some kind, taking kids to school even; she can't communicate with anyone right? Because she's wearing a Burka right? Do you believe that Muslim women only have friends they meet while not wearing their Burka or do you consider it likely that they might make friends when they are too? I don't think you're making a good argument Jay. Just because you don't think you could communicate wearing a burka or with someone wearing one, doesn't mean that others can't. It is your notions of how one communicates - which are western - that form these ideas. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-20-2006, 08:13 PM	#113
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Very good point Ali.

11-20-2006, 08:30 PM	#114
JayMcGee Cardigan-wearing man Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Much Binding In The Marsh Posts: 1,082	Perhaps I'm not explaining myself so well. Nine times out of ten, wearing the burha is not a problem. But, now and again, it is a problem. In the UK, this was highlighted by the case of a Burkha'd teacher at a Church of England Priamary school. How would the kids feel? how could they relate to a pair of eyes peering out of a sea of black? OK, that is the emotional arguement. Now let's look at the logic....... Muslim women who choose (it's not mandatory) to wear the Burkha do so out of a sense of modesty - ie they do not wish to enrage the lustfull passions of those males who might be so enflamed by the sight of their visage. TBH, I have yet to see an eight year-old 'turned on' by dimpled cheeks and a friendly smile. __________________ I like wearing cardigans...... my current favourite is an orange cable-knit with real leatherette buttons.

11-20-2006, 08:33 PM	#115
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Little boys are not the only males in a primary school environment. There are some women here who wouldn't dress like I do because they'd feel uncomfortable showing off their tits that much. I wonder how they'd feel if the government decided that all women must show a certain amount of cleavage because if they don't, they might be hiding something. It's the same argument. Just a different perspective. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-20-2006, 08:35 PM	#116
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	She only wore the veil because there was a mixed sex staff.....that said, on that occassion I think the woman was out of line. Reason being, that she attended her interview at the school without a veil. She was interviewed by a man and obviously decided that with her veil she wouldn't be given the job. Fair enough, I can see her point.....but the people who employed her, as a classroom assistant for children who were learning English as a second language, were therefore not aware of what they were taking on. Given that the children were learning English as a second language, I would have thought that being able to see the mouth shapes of words, would be pretty important. That was one case. The vast majority of women who wear veils do not find it impeding on their ability to do their job or engage with the world. The trouble is we only really hear about the extreme cases.

11-20-2006, 08:40 PM	#117
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	There's heaps of women here who wear veils although not too many that wear burkas. The greatest exposure I've had to women wearing veils etc are in the universities here. Hubby has quite a few muslim students also and finds them to be valuable members of his classes veil on or off. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

11-20-2006, 08:43 PM	#118
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	There are loads of gals at my uni who wear veils and quite a few who wear the....it's not a burkha but it looks a lot like one. It's black and closer fitting than a burkha...actually they usually look absolutely stunning in them. truly graceful looking piece of kit.

11-20-2006, 08:43 PM	#119
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Well-educated Muslim women are the best possible outcome. Education solves all problems.

11-20-2006, 08:45 PM	#120
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	I think we are in agreement there.

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