The Draft

[Griff]

Originally posted by DanaC


I dont understand what atheism has to do with it....I am an atheist. I find it helps me see the world more clearly not less....

Everyones belief system impacts the way they look at the world. I don't mean to insult your world view in any way. Radar on the other hand is violating a key part of the belief system he claims to adhere to. He is always an over the top, in your face, libertarian but suddenly he has revealed that he believes property rights are a gift from the state. The reason I twisted his tail on atheism is because as an acedemic question, I asked him point blank in an earlier thread where natural rights come from in a Godless universe. There is probably an answer but he didn't have it. Natural rights are a basic foundation of libertarianism. It now appears to me that he doesn't believe that man has any rights not granted by the state. That makes him a Statist not a libertarian.

[DanaC]

How does an absolute belief in an unprovable concept make you see things more clearly?

In much the same way as knowing that pixies, santa , his elves and the toothfairy dont exist helps keep my mind clear to concentrate on stuff that does.

I have looked at the evidence as best I can given my lack of education in the fields of physics and theology and I have read books writtenby scholars on both sides of that divide and frankly I am more convinced by the evidence put forward by the physicists than those put forward by the theologians. Can it be proven without a shadow of a doubt? Well if you ask Professor Dawkins he would probably say no. If you ask the Archbishop of Canterbury he would probably say no. But thats because its not provable. Neither is the existence of Pots of gold at the end of rainbows. Just because nobody ever found one doesnt mean theyarent there right?

It strikes me that at some point you have to accept a default position. If something is unprovable then you look to the next level and ask yourself is it really likely? I think God is as likely as the devil and both are as likely as self propelled flying pigs. I have yet to hear a single theological academic or theological physicist (I was surprised to find they existed...) put forward a theory that didnt run up against my "thats bullshit" filter.

Throughout history scientists have searched for answers and the church has warned them back saying "Nay nay this far and no further.....From this point on you have strayed into heaven" yet the scientists pushed forwards and forwards, and the sun ceased to revolve around the earth and the earth ceased to be flat and again the men of God said "nay. Nay ths far and no further. We said God existed at the edge of our sight and you have pushed forwards into heaven and found only sky. This far and no further. For after this point we trespass on Gods' house" but further we went.....at each major push the men of God have bid us cease our pushing. They have insisted that God exists at the edge of our knowledge. Each time we push forward and find no evidence of God. Next we are told he exists beyong the big bang....But then we learned to see through and beyond the big bang and saw no God. Then we decided....Maybe God is the spark that gave us sentience....the more we find out about our genetics and our physicaldevelopment the more the answer seems to come back that God had no part in our awakening.

I accept that those with religion have the right to that belief. But....I also think that religion ( of every brand) is a dangerous thing, a conservative thing and a block to human understanding and scientific progress.

Imagnine we were talking about pink elephants and the default position was that we should all respect everybody's right to believe in herds of pink elephants despite nobody in living memory ever having seen a pink elephant ....thats fair enough ...but would the marker be set for all generations of scientists to come that they must test all their evidence with the assumption that pink elephants are all around them, unseen and integral to the workings of th universe?

For any of you who do believe in a God, then just dismiss this as the ramblings of an atheist and pay me no heed :P

[tw]

Originally posted by Radar
Because the Palestinians are targeting women and children specifically and it was they who INITIATED the violence in the first place.

Radar loves twisting facts. He hopes we forget late 1990 Middle East. Intafada 2 was created - and quite intentionally - by Ariel Sharon and his few hundred closest friend. Trampling upon Temple Mount was but one of thousands of desecrations to create hate, anger, and then violence. Only one group is responsible for wanting violence in the Middle East. Intafada 2 was necessary for Likud to trample on innocent people. Only Likud also openly advocated the assasination of Rabin - so that a peace process would be quashed. What is the enemy of Likud? Peace.

The Oslo Accords were Likud's greatest threat. Likud had to murder Rabin to end peace. They had to desecrate and humiliate Palestinians repeatedly to restart the violence. Only two of many early acts of violence created only by Likud. Likud made peace impossbile. Made it impossible for a vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians to promote what honest, moderate people of all nations want - peace.

Radar advocates what all dichead supporters - better know as Lukid - want. He rabidly advocates more violence that I sometimes think he has sex when promoting violence and Likud. Likud wants only violence. Violence is necessary for Zionism. More violence means Israel steals the West Bank. More violence means a wall can be built to steal the remaining good West Bank land. They got George Jr to even let them use American weapons on Palestinians - and a long list of other concessions. No previous American president was so dumb as to let Israelis attack defenseless Palestinians with American weapons. All this violence and mental midget president concessions are necessary for Zionism.

Radar lies to promote their agenda. Violence was clearly started by Sharon and his Likud party - starting with the murder of Rabin. Radar hopes we forget what was happening before Likud had Rabin assassinated.

Did the Palestinians kill Rabin? Of course not. They wanted peace. Only Likud needs violence to promote their Zionism. The dichead and mass murder Sharon did just that. He even has Radar promoting the genocide that Likud needs. Those Israeli victims? Necessary for the greater glory and objectives of Likud. Cannon fodder for a militant Zionist state.

Ask yourself how Ghandi would respond to so many accusations. Do you attack like the dichead - or promote peace? Your choice.

[elSicomoro]

Well, we already know that he's a dickhead...

[jaguar]

*shrugs* We all know radar is a nutjob, particularly when it comes to the Isreali/Palatsinian conflict, don't waste your time DanaC, it's like debating with a brick wall.

[DanaC]

tw, I couldnt agree more.
Jaguar....thanks....I really ought to remind myself of that every now and again *smiles* for sanity's sake hehe

[Radar]

He is always an over the top, in your face, libertarian but suddenly he has revealed that he believes property rights are a gift from the state.

I have said no such thing.

The reason I twisted his tail on atheism is because as an acedemic question, I asked him point blank in an earlier thread where natural rights come from in a Godless universe. There is probably an answer but he didn't have it.

Yes, I had it then and I still have it. Natural rights come from nature. We're born with them and the fictional character of "god" doesn't even enter into the picture.

Natural rights are a basic foundation of libertarianism.

True. What's your point?

It now appears to me that he doesn't believe that man has any rights not granted by the state.

That's an absolute and utter lie and I've never even said anything even remotely suggesting something so absurd. What the fuck are you smoking?

I've said that the Palestinian people didn't own the land and they didn't. Merely staying on a piece of land doesn't make it yours. If I buy some land in a state where I don't live, and you camp out on it for years, and then I choose to live on that land, IT'S NOT YOUR LAND!!! You never owned it and have no property rights to it what-so-ever. You're a liar if you claim otherwise.

How does an absolute belief in an unprovable concept make you see things more clearly?

The burden of proof rests squarely on those who claim god does exist; real proof of the existence of the being of god, not things people attribute to god like those idiots who point at a tree and are stupid enough to suggest that its proof god created it. If I said I saw a purple and orange polka-dot gorilla in the wild that could read minds, speak every language, and levitate nobody would believe me and if I pressed the issue they would demand to see it. The story of god is no more believable than the purple gorilla without measurable tangible proof of the being of god.

Radar loves twisting facts.

I have never "twisted" the facts even once. Everything I've said is straightforward, truthful, and based in historical fact.

TW just tells lie after lie. It's so predictable and boring.

Violence is necessary for Zionism.

Wrong. Violence is not necessary for Zionism. Peace is necessary for it. Zionists just want to lvie peacefully on their own land (yes it's their land) without having their women and children targeted and attacked. No attacks against Israel means no violence in return. The violence started on the part of the Palestinians, and it will voluntarily on their part or it will just end the Palestinian people.

I'm not advocating the initiation of violence. I'm advocating ending violence and having Peace once and for all. If the Palestinians refuse to stop their violence against Israel, they will be destroyed and Israel will still have peace.

Israel hasn't "stolen" any land. In fact they've been far too kind. They should have taken all the land of all the nations who attacked them because they are entitled to it. To the victor goes the spoils. But because Israel isn't interested in conquest or in someone else's land, they only took a small part of what they were entitled to as a buffer zone between them and their terrorist neighbors.

TW sure likes to try to rewrite history, but forgets that others like myself know the truth and will shut him down everytime he's stupid enough to open his mouth.

Here's a little fact retard, the U.S. military has never ever fought to defend Israel; not once. But they have fought to defend several Muslim nations.

No previous American president was so dumb as to let Israelis attack defenseless Palestinians with American weapons.

It's not up to an American president to determine who or why any other nation attacks anyone. Israel owns every single square centimeter of land they occupy legitimately and is perfectly justified morallly and legally to blow the shit out of people who attack them.

Israel takes every precaution to avoid harming innocent civilians but the Palestinians terrorists surround themselves with them as a human shield so they can point to the bodies and call Israel a bunch of monsters when in fact it was the Palestinians who initiated the violence and were just getting justice. Every death of a Palestinian civilian who was placed in danger by Palestinian terrorists rests on the shoulders of the Palestinian terrorists, not in those who brought justice to them.

Radar lies to promote their agenda.

I have NEVER lied on this or any other message board, but you seem to tell many lies. Here's a perfect example of a lie...

Violence was clearly started by Sharon and his Likud party - starting with the murder of Rabin. Radar hopes we forget what was happening before Likud had Rabin assassinated.

Wrong. The violence was started 3 days after Israel was created as a nation by the Palestinians and hasn't stopped since. The Palestinians don't want peace, they want to kill Jews. In 1996, the Palestinians were offered all of the land rightfully taken by Israel in 1967, and to get help in becoming an actual country if they could go one week without attacking any Jewish people in Israel. They coudn't do it.

TW, you're stupid and dishonest beyond words. Zionism does not require violence, but terrorism against Zionists does.

Ask yourself how long America would allow Mexicans to go into American movie theaters, malls, busses, etc. blowing up people before we just blew the shit out of Mexico? You can bet your ass it wouldn't be 50 years. Israel has been far too patient, kind, gentle, and nice to their neighbors.

Israel allows Palestinians to live, work, and even vote in Israel including women. No Arab nation on earth allows Arab women to vote.

I find it hilarious that the most idiotic, insane, pathetic, moronic, losers and assholes on the board call me a dickhead like Jaguar, Griff, Sycamore, and TW. I wear your insults like a badge of honor. Not that any of you would know much about honor.

[jaguar]

I find it hilarious that the most idiotic, insane, pathetic, moronic, losers and assholes

I rest my case.

As for honor, you'd best watch your words, the internet is a funny place and you never really know who you're talking to.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
-Isaac Asimov

[DanaC]

Israel takes every precaution to avoid harming innocent civilians

.......Up to and including bulldozing houses with the occupants still in them......Up to and including firing rockets ( rockets mind you!) into an apartment block which contained one of their political enemies but also happened to contain a bunch of kids.

If the Palestinians choose to hide their militants in residential areas thats no reason for Israel to abandon all sense of decency and basic humanity by slaughtering innocents. ......Of course I dont see it as the palestinians militants hiding amongst civilians....after all....they live in crowded cramped towns grown up out of the squalor of refugee camps where everyone, civilian and militant alike is in constant fear of attack.

When Ancient Rome ruled the world they used to engage in a practice of punishing entire regions for the misdemeanors of a few. The British did it also in India. And the rampant army which is (laughably) referred to as the Isareli Defense Force do the same. They are not an Empire to rival Rome but they live under the Aegis of one much greater.

A crime of epic proportions is being inflicted upon the Palestinians and the world is too busy feeling guilty for the suffering we caused amongst the Jewish people in the last century to notice that the Israeli state learned the lessons of fascism all too well.

I saw a picture once which really shocked me. I wish i could find it again It showed a long line of Palestinian men and boys ( youngest about 12 oldest about 70) who had been dragged from their homes and were being taken off for "questioning" by the Israelis.....Every one of these men had his prison number marked on his forearm. Now theres an image to take away the breath.

[Undertoad]

Yeah, can't they see the parallel of building a big wall along the border to keep their citizens from escaping the living hell that -- uh --

It's Fascism I tell you! What do you mean 10% of the Israeli government representatives are Arabs?

[jaguar]

What do you mean 10% of the Israeli government representatives are Arabs?

I'd like to see a source for that, I don't mean that in a cynical way, I'm genuinely curious.

[jaguar]

To the victor goes the spoils.

SO I can come round to your house, kick your ass and steal your TV, coz hey, I'm the victor, bitch.

[Undertoad]

Unfortunately my cite is in the same place as Dana's image.

[Undertoad]

But I have Google... according to this article, currently 10 out of 120 Knesset seats are held by Arabs. Slightly less than 10%. The article is a year and a half old though.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk021115/i20.shtml

[jaguar]

I found This

There is an arab faction, only has two members though. Not sure if the rest are spread though the groups, no breakdown on race unsurprisingly.