What would Martin Niemoller think about Arizona?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Don't forget the ones that fly in.

[conspiracy]Those unemployed folks might like to make some cash building a wall between Mexico and the US of A. And I'll bet they'll do it for cheap! Wasn't that the plan when they wire terminated from their employment?[/theory]

Cite.

Interesting... Who is breaking the law - the employer who pays less than minimum wage or the employee who accepts minimum wage? I say the employer is breaking the law (surprise).

Those Damm employees. Fire those workers now and end this disparity!

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Redux

Do you think signs like this are representative of the immigration reform protest movement as a whole..rather than representing a minority of the fringe protesters?

Obviously not. Why would anyone see THAT as the whole of the problem? I don't know anyone that dumb. Now if the people protesting had put the wording of spexxies quote ( shown below )on that poster board maybe it would have seemed less than a fringe protest. It might get a little more empathy.

by spex modified.Bold mine. We're the people in the service sector working for less than minimum wage, with no employer-provided benefits or employer-withheld taxes. We're the people who work long hours, since it's at low wages, mowing your lawn, washing dishes at your restaurant, emptying your septic tank, cleaning your hotel room, etc.

I changed the wording from 'they're to we're'. A great post for ? what? Empathy? What are comments like that suppose to do for the issue?
http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=652299&postcount=97

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Assume away. Most anecdotal evidence is that illegals are the people in the service sector working for less than minimum wage, with no employer-provided benefits or employer-withheld taxes. They're the people who work long hours, since it's at low wages, mowing your lawn, washing dishes at your restaurant, emptying your septic tank, cleaning your hotel room, etc.

Cite.

[Cloud]

Remember, guys, I live on the border, so my viewpoint may be different than yours.

First, it's nonsensical because the border between Mexico and the US has been "secured" in the ordinary understanding of the term. Fences, a river, ports of entry, checkpoints, guards on both sides--the whole nine yards. BUT -- there's really no way to physically cut off the entire border. It's just not practical--The Fence notwithstanding. There's too much of it, it's too isolated, fences can be dug under, guards avoided. It's nonsensical to imagine that we can totally "secure" it.

Second, the glib phrase "secure the border" is pissing me off, because it demonstrates absolutely no understanding of the reality here, or compassion for the people involved. The border is a fictional construct that neither reflects the past or the present. Just because Texas fought with Mexico and established a line in the sand, does not mean that the people who live here, and have always lived here, should have no rights. The region is a geographical and cultural whole. The reality is the people in question, the Mexicans, Mexican-Americans, and Americans of Mexican, Spanish, and Native American descent, were here first. They live a bi-national life, and have done so for centuries. Families and jobs are bi-national here. They are hurting, big time, because of the violence which we have, in part contributed to, and they need help, not a door slammed in their faces.

So, to me, that phrase is just a sound bite for the white people to rally about. To me, it's rude, naive, and self-righteous, not to mention impractical and lacking in compassion.

Having said all that, I agree that immigration reform is needed. I am not trying to make excuses for illegals or support them. I agree that people here illegally should not be using our services, or taking advantage of the rights of citizens. I agree that drug fueled violence is partly our problem (but not all). I agree that better border security is needed. But believing that "securing" the borders is an answer to all the current problems is, well . . . nonsensical. It's just a pat phrase that lends nothing to any solution.

[classicman]

I have said "secure the border" repeatedly, so I'll respond in kind.

I do not know how to do it - no idea. well maybe one - There is this great wall I've heard about in China. Only problem is it would take a lot of people and resources and with the economy doing so well and unemployment so low - oh wait, never mind.

To this little tidbit

rude, naive, and self-righteous, not to mention impractical and lacking in compassion.

rude - Why/how?
self-righteous - You are smarter than that.
impractical - see below.
lacking in compassion - for whom? The criminals who have been coming here illegally? Perhaps. For Americans - not in the least.

Now regarding your - Reality rant. That was settled a long time ago.

Perhaps its the phraseology you don't like. Instead of secure - I'll try it this way; "Control our Borders" and by that I mean to control the influx of illegal immigrants, which are by definition criminals, from coming here. I know you see it differently, but coming here illegally makes one a criminal - period. That part of this IS that simple.
Has the problem gotten completely out of hand due to the lack of inaction over the last half dozen administration - YES.
But doing nothing now doesn't change that trend. We simply CAN NOT afford the status quo.
I wholeheartedly welcome and respect all those who chose to uproot their families and their lives to come here LEGALLY. Please do not mistake the two - at least from me.

[Shawnee123]

Cloud, that was a damn fine post.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Cloud, that was a damn fine post.

Agreed

[Pie]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Cloud, that was a damn fine post.

Thirded.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Pie

Thirded.

I was pretty impressed by it as well.

[Pico and ME]

Originally Posted by glatt

I was pretty impressed by it as well.

Add me to this growing list!

[Cloud]

BTW, there are roadblocks between cities checking papers. There are Border Patrol check stations; there's one between here and Albuquerque, for instance. Everyone must stop and be inspected. They check for drugs, for terrorist activities, and for human trafficking (I assume--don't know exactly what their mandate is).

No, they never check my papers, because I'm a middle aged white woman.

furthermore, there are "roving patrols grabbing brown people." What do you think the Border Patrol does?

caveat: I live in Texas, not Arizona.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Cloud

BTW, there are roadblocks between cities checking papers.

Yeah, I remember a roadblock checking for illegals when we left San Diego years ago, heading north. Had to be almost 20 years ago now...

[Cloud]

"Controlling" the borders is fine, and worthwhile. Compassion showed, yes, even to illegals, who are almost always between a rock and a hard place, and their families, who are often legal, is essential.

This is more than an abstract political question to me. It directly affects 100% of the people around me. My life has been intimately entwined with Mexico, with Mexicans, with Mexican Americans forever. I'm a Western girl, brought up in the areas of the US that used to belong to Spain. I've visited Mexico since I was very small, I speak Spanish. My parents sponsored entire families to get their green cards and subsequent citizenship. My parents retired in Mexico, I went to college there, I fell in love with a Mexican and had a child with him who had dual citizenship until she was 21. I'm about as Mexican as I can get without actually being one. So, yeah--I'm empathetic to the problem.

Presently, I am seeing families torn apart, and people fleeing from violence. I am seeing the complex, and completely intertwined relationships--business, economic, social, and familial that form across the border. I don't particularly want illegal aliens here, but I decry the simplistic approach of just "securing the borders" or "sending them all back to where they came from."

Am I for "control" of the border? Am I for a better immigration scheme? Sure! But I urge everyone to consider that no single phrase or simple approach is sensible to apply to this very difficult and heartrending problem.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Cloud

...
But I urge everyone to consider that no single phrase or simple approach is sensible to apply to this very difficult and heartrending problem.

Good Gawd--we need to assign a special task force to this problem ASAP: we need a better catchphrase!!!1

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Cloud

"Controlling" the borders is fine, and worthwhile.

We agree.

This is more than an abstract political question to me. It directly affects 100% of the people around me. ~snip~ So, yeah--I'm empathetic to the problem.

That was obvious from your first post. You have a perspective that is very different than mine. Thats one of the things I love about interacting here. The diversity.

I am seeing the complex, and completely intertwined relationships--business, economic, social, and familial that form across the border. I don't particularly want illegal aliens here, but I decry the simplistic approach of just "securing the borders" or "sending them all back to where they came from."

BUT - and yes thats a big butt. Something has to be done. We cannot just grant them all immunity. Nor can we just send them all back.
We have to get a handle on the vast numbers of them coming here illegally. Until that takes place, there are no real solutions.
One of the positives I see out of this law is that it has brought this back to the forefront and may force the current administration to address the problem. Unfortunately, I think it will be more of a politically motivated policy.

Am I for "control" of the border? Am I for a better immigration scheme? Sure! But I urge everyone to consider that no single phrase or simple approach

AGREED!