Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week

[DanaC]

Zionism is the belief that the state of Israel and its people have a right to exist without having its women and children blown to bits. Zionism has never harmed a single person on earth. Anti-Zionism on the other hand means you don't believe this nation has any right to exist or to defend itself when people attack them. It means you believe every nation on earth other than the Jewish one, has a right to exist and defend itself.

How is this NOT anti-Jew?

From Jews against Zionism:

In their own words Jews Against Zionism describe themselves as:

Jews Against Zionism is an organisation of Jews and others opposed to the Zionist movement and ideology, and to its impact on both Palestinians and Jews. We believe that the conflict in Palestine cannot be resolved without a return of Palestinian refugees and dismantlement of the Zionist structure of the state of Israel; and that this is impossible in the context of “two states“ and a re-partition of Palestine.

We advocate the only approach which can lead to peace with justice in the region; we call fro a unitary, secular and democratic Palestine, the return of Palestinian refugees, and full and equal rights for Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and all other people living in the whole of Palestine.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Because "Zionism" is not "Judaism". Israel is a majority-Jewish nation with aspects of Judaism enshrined in law, but it does not speak for all Jews on Earth. You can oppose Zionism and support Jews. You can support Zionism and support Jews. You can be anti-Jew, and support Zionism as a way to get the Jews out of your own country or a way to instigate Biblical Armageddon. Or you can be anti-Jew and anti-Zionism.

Personally, I do support Israel's right to exist and defend itself. I also support the USA's right to defend itself. I don't pretend that either nation always does so in appropriate ways, and I don't think that the behavior of the enemies of either nation excuses any of that nation's bad behavior.

The only Jews against Zionism are self-deprecating Jews or rabbis who say Jews can't return to their homeland until after the messiah returns. Israel IS a Jewish state. Saying "I don't hate Jewish people, I just hate Israel" is absolutely NO DIFFERENT than saying, "I don't hate Chinese people, I just hate China...and those who say it has the right to exist and defend itself when attacked."

[Urbane Guerrilla]

The Palestinians are perennially crying victim while perennially acting the perpetrator.

No human being should sympathize in any least degree with such behavior or such people, but instead convert them from it or exterminate them for it. I am utterly fed to the teeth with the unfortunate sort of Palestinian, vexed at the neighboring states' refusal to absorb or aid them, preferring to keep them as mudfoots for a proxy-war, and annoyed at the neighboring states' graceless inability to accept what is the new reality. What's so new or particularly so unjust about peoples being moved around by migrations? This has happened before over the millennia. The Jews aren't going to go away. Will it take the death of every Arab in Jordan to drive this home to the idiot fanatics? For Allah's sake, guys, don't drive the Jews of all people to commit genocide. Or can we just settle for killing Islam's idiots off and thereby purifying the religion?

[queequeger]

I am utterly fed to the teeth with the unfortunate sort of Palestinian

The so-called Palestinian people are not using DEFENSIVE force, they are using OFFENSIVE (attacking) force against the weakest members of the Israeli community, women and children.

Everyone keeps saying this. Of course there are atrocities on both sides, but WHO IS ON WHO'S LAND??

The argument that it was Israel being awarded land that was rightfully theirs... when was the last time prior to WWII that Israel belonged to the jews? Was it more than a THOUSAND YEARS AGO!?

We as US citizens stake so much claim on our land that we want to keep the unworthy out, but we stole it through trickery and large scale murder piece by piece from it's native tribes. So in a thousand years, do the Sioux and the Cherokee and the other tribes get it back?

There are people alive in Palestine today who were alive when they had their own country. There haven't been any living refugees of the original Israelites for dozens of centuries.

What if a group of people who claimed to have been true descendants of the Gauls demanded their land? Would we just decide to give up all the the land to them? Sorry, france, spain, small pieces of germany, etc. Hope you didn't want that. It belongs to THESE people. They can show you receipts.

I hold no more distaste for how Israel was formed than any other country. All these lines in the dirt are products of murder, thievery, and might-makes-right. Every country on the globe. The part I don't understand is how so many people can blame the palestinians for fighting back!

If the Global community decided to give back the US lands to the native americans, and buy them all the planes trains and guns they needed to keep us subdued... every single one of you real hard core mothers would tie on your bandanna and go Rambo on them, right? Right? But not the palestinians, they're monsters. They throw rocks at soldiers.

What about the SOLDIERS who SHOOT the CIVILIANS? What about bulldozing entire camps because a suicide bomber came in? You say 'they helped plan it.' How the hell do we know that? They said so? There was no investigation, no trial.

I'm not, nor ever would say that the crazy twisted bastards that train kids as soldiers, strap bombs to their chests and blow up cafes are excused or even worth their weight of flesh. The idea that Israel is without blame, doesn't escalate the conflict, and doesn't show blatant disregard for an entire people is so fucking ridiculous it gives me an aneurysm. They're just as twisted as the Palestinian fighters, but they have MUCH bigger guns.

Sorry for the rant.

[DanaC]

How is it that we can separate the American administration from America and Americans in our minds, but not the Israeli government from Israel and jewish people?

It is ok to hate what China does as a nation, it is not ok to hate the Chinese or China. It is ok to hate what America does as a nation...it is not ok to hate America and Americans. It is ok to hate what Israel does as a country...this does not mean hating Israel, Israelis or Jews.

Zionism is not Judaism. Jews are not all Zionists and Zionists do not speak for all the jewsh Diaspora. Zionism doesn't even speak for all Jews in Israel. There are many Israeli Jews working with Palestinians to alleviate their suffering and actively campaigning against their country's far-right, extremist, Zionist stance.

Either Israel is a country just like any other or it is a special case. If it's a country like any other then it can be held to account like any other without that account equating to hatred of the Jews. If it is a special case...does that mean it can do anyting it wants without sanction?

Personally, Radar, I find your stance to be a more anti-semitic stance (sorry anti-jewish) than mine or Queeq's. You have reduced them to a political agenda and held them to be uniquely unnaccountable. To truly see Jews as equal to other 'races' one must hold them to the same standards. You do not do this. You set them aside from the rest of humanity and say no....different rules apply. America is not its administration. Britain is not her Queen. Zimbabwe is not its Dictator. Iraq was not Saddam. Israel is not the Zionist agenda. Zionism and Judaism are two entirely different concepts.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by queequeger

You can't seriously tell me that Americans don't feel 'special' or 'superior' in majority. Look at any thread on illegal immigration and the whole thing will REEK of excessive nationalism. Any topic comparing the US to any other nation or group of people results in this display of flag waving and preaching.

Since WWII our government has been employing propaganda machines saying that effectively we are democracy, we are the perfected government and we must defend our freedom-democracy-liberty machine against the evil intentioned 'other.' The difference now is that the 'war information movies' don't have the 'office of war information' banner at the beginning. In fact, the videos and press that are shared now have been engineered to look like real news, trying to hide their propaganda.

Let's be clear: I'm not using 'propaganda' in the sense that it is exclusively produced by the US. Just about every country that has been involved in a modern war has used it to rally their people. This is mostly because people almost never react the way their leaders want if they are presented with all the information and given a while to decide. It's FAR more effective to create a black-and-white landscape.

The point I'm making is that you cannot refute the claim that Americans have been raised by birth to believe that we are THE beacon of democracy and enemies are all around us, who hate freedom. I think, in fact, that the 90s were the only decade in recent memory where there WASN'T a vast faceless enemy trying to destroy us... mostly because there was no group that could be made into it.

Also... how does it have nothing to do with Islam when the name we given to our enemy is 'The Islamo-fascists.' Why aren't they just fascists?

The bottom line is that I can seriously tell you that Americans don't feel 'special' or 'superior' in majority any more than any other counties citizens do about their home. You mean to try to tell me that people in China, UK, Canada, North Korea, Mexico, Venezuela, Cuba, or any other country does not exhibit a certain sense of nationalistic pride?? Every country does so. I have spent a lot of time with soldiers from the UK and a few other countries and they are furiously proud and nationalistic about their owns country, as they should be. We have the same pride as others do. Other countries, many, use film and differing levels of propaganda to support their notions of nationalism. Nothing new there.

What we have is difference among governments, not among people and their response to a sense of nationalistic pride. It is the policy and actions of governments, albeit temporary in nature, that get people all bent out of shape and make them want to spew hate toward each other. We are becoming more and more polarized as a nation and as a world.

This has little to do with Islam because you are using a minority of radical islamic believers to define the cause. Most followers of Islam are peaceful and want to be left alone like many other. I am all for our country using whatever means are available in finding these radicals anywhere in the world in any country and hunting them down and killing them. That is not the issue. The issue is that it is a minority of all of those who follow Islam.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Radar

I hate dishonesty, and I hate racism. So I really hate those who are dishonest about their racism....like those who say, "I don't hate Jews, I just hate Zionism". This is like saying, I don't hate Japanese people, I just hate Japan and all the people who live there or support its right to exist.

Jews are a group of people. Zionism is an ideology. I hate the Nazi ideology but I do not hate the German people. I hate the neo-conservative ideology but I do not have hate the American people. I hate Zionism ideology but I do not hate Jewish people, catch my drift?

Calling people that support Palestinians anti-semitic is just a way to limit free speech by placing that issue into a category no one wants to go into without political suicide. It is no different than calling people who are anti-immigration racist. Sure some people that are anti-immigration are racist and sure, some people who are pro-Palestinians are anti-semitic but to call everyone who are anti-immigration racist or everyone that supports the Palestinian people anti-semitic is not only using cheap dirty, and invalid, arguing techniques, but it disallows a mature intelligent discussion on the topic and disintegrates it to 5-year old yelling and bitching match.

The only way peace can be restored in Palestine is a one-state solution going through a bi-national state. That is the only way to stop the fighting and establish good relations,even though it will be a long road.

And a question:
Do you think the Palestinian actions are proactive or a result of what their lives are like? You can never assume that their standard of living is even close to ours, most have no hope for any future. And remember, groups like Hamas didn't start showing up until the 1980s, a good 30 years after the Israeli state was established.


For the "the Jews deserve a homeland" shit. I understand the Jews have been through the hardest times out of almost any group of people but they knew there would be conflict if an Israeli state was established in Palestine so why the hell do we blame Bush for Iraq when he knew how fucked up it will be but not the Israeli fundamentalists, notice how I do not blame all Israelites, when they knew this sort of conflict would erupt? Quee summed up my other argument very well for that.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

This has little to do with Islam because you are using a minority of radical islamic believers to define the cause. Most followers of Islam are peaceful and want to be left alone like many other. I am all for our country using whatever means are available in finding these radicals anywhere in the world in any country and hunting them down and killing them. That is not the issue. The issue is that it is a minority of all of those who follow Islam.

Yes, we need to find out what the incentive for people turning to a radical stance is and stopping that. Just going out and killing them probably won't solve much.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Radar

Israel IS a Jewish state. Saying "I don't hate Jewish people, I just hate Israel" is absolutely NO DIFFERENT than saying, "I don't hate Chinese people, I just hate China...and those who say it has the right to exist and defend itself when attacked."

It is very different, because "Chinese people" are "people from China". "Jewish people" is not a synonym for "people from Israel".

If the Kurds decide that they want their own country, and claim territory from the nations they are living in, your view on that claim is not synonymous with your view of the Kurdish people.

[Rexmons]

Why is it that when someone threatens our land or freedom it's ok to do whatever is necessary to get it back but when Muslims do it they're labeled as radicals? Maybe the reason these people become ultra religious is because the only people not trying to “exterminate” them are there fellow Muslims. They don’t just wake up one day and say “I’m tired of living peacefully; I want to be a terrorist”. The reality is most of these people have had their lives ripped apart and have been put through things we can never even begin to understand. We are a very lucky few to be able to live in the types of societies we do, but we have to remember that we make up a very small portion of the demographic.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Rexmons

The reality is most of these people have had their lives ripped apart and have been put through things we can never even begin to understand. We are a very lucky few to be able to live in the types of societies we do, but we have to remember that we make up a very small portion of the demographic.

That is probably true for a lot but I bet some of them would be comparable to conspiracy theorist in the United States. Extremely irrational and, put the in a different situation and I bet this will happen, willing to do anything to achieve what they think is "right".

It has nothing more to do with Islam than abortion clinic bombings have to do with Christianity. They are just in a situation where the incentive to go to such extremes is much higher than in the United States.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It is very different, because "Chinese people" are "people from China". "Jewish people" is not a synonym for "people from Israel".

If the Kurds decide that they want their own country, and claim territory from the nations they are living in, your view on that claim is not synonymous with your view of the Kurdish people.

Wrong. Israel is the land of the Jews. It's the Jewish homeland in the same way China is the homeland of the Chinese. You can't legitimately separate the two.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Jews are a group of people. Zionism is an ideology. I hate the Nazi ideology but I do not hate the German people. I hate the neo-conservative ideology but I do not have hate the American people. I hate Zionism ideology but I do not hate Jewish people, catch my drift?

Calling people that support Palestinians anti-semitic is just a way to limit free speech by placing that issue into a category no one wants to go into without political suicide. It is no different than calling people who are anti-immigration racist. Sure some people that are anti-immigration are racist and sure, some people who are pro-Palestinians are anti-semitic but to call everyone who are anti-immigration racist or everyone that supports the Palestinian people anti-semitic is not only using cheap dirty, and invalid, arguing techniques, but it disallows a mature intelligent discussion on the topic and disintegrates it to 5-year old yelling and bitching match.

The only way peace can be restored in Palestine is a one-state solution going through a bi-national state. That is the only way to stop the fighting and establish good relations,even though it will be a long road.

And a question:
Do you think the Palestinian actions are proactive or a result of what their lives are like? You can never assume that their standard of living is even close to ours, most have no hope for any future. And remember, groups like Hamas didn't start showing up until the 1980s, a good 30 years after the Israeli state was established.


For the "the Jews deserve a homeland" shit. I understand the Jews have been through the hardest times out of almost any group of people but they knew there would be conflict if an Israeli state was established in Palestine so why the hell do we blame Bush for Iraq when he knew how fucked up it will be but not the Israeli fundamentalists, notice how I do not blame all Israelites, when they knew this sort of conflict would erupt? Quee summed up my other argument very well for that.

The word Palestine doesn't refer to a country, it refers to a physical region. Calling someone a "Palestinian" is like calling people from Colorado "Rocky Mountain People".

There is no such thing as a "Palestinian" in exactly the same way there are no "Rocky Mountain People". The Jordanians and other Arabs calling themselves Palestinians lived on the land but so did Jews. Jews have lived on that land constantly since before biblical times. During the years when there was no state of Israel, Jews still lived there. It is Jewish land. During all of the years when there was no state of Israel, the Arabs who call themselves "Palestinians" NEVER owned a single square inch of the land. It was owned by various empires, but never the people who lived on the land. In fact none of them owned any land until it was divided by the British empire and shared with the people who were basically squatters and the Jews.

1947 was the first time in history the so-called Palestinians owned any land at all and the land they were given was historically part of Israel so if anyone has a reason to be mad, it's the Israeli people.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Radar

Wrong. Israel is the land of the Jews. It's the Jewish homeland in the same way China is the homeland of the Chinese.

Um, no. Not even close. The Jews existed before Israel, and they still exist throughout the world as citizens of their respective nations. Israel is the homeland of the people who live there.

[piercehawkeye45]

It doesn't matter who lived where historically. Refer to quee's post.

You can not just say, "we lived there 2,000 years ago" so it should be ours now because of the countless other groups of people that have been taken over and moved out. And even so, the Jews have only lived in Israel for 1,000 years out of the past 3,000 since Judaism has only been around for that long. That means that Arabs have been living there for twice as long as the Jews and you say that it is the land of the Jews?

Also, Judaism as it was 2,000 years ago is dead ever since the Romans burned down the temple so there is no need for an Israeli homeland. But, even if there old religion didn't die, no religion or group of people should be given land on the blood of others. If something has already happened, not much we can do but help integrate the populations and that is what we should be doing with Palestine.