Options limited in Iran stand-off

[DanaC]

The world now regards even torture as standard MO by Americans. Worse, torturing any Anglo-American is no longer considered taboo throughout many parts of the world where Americans and British were once so much respected.

This unfortunately true, I think. It's not just the Americans either tw. There have now been enough cases of Iraqis 'disappeared' by British forces, with their families ignorant as to whether they've died, or been incarcerated, only to have the body turn up later wth signs of brutality. I don't think it's our general MO, but it's happened enough to taint us with that image.

As for America's use of torture....British citizens have been held for upwards of two years and tortured in Guantanemo Bay. Other nationals are still there....five years and counting. Five years, held with no charge, no recourse to justice, no chance to explain, no chance to view the 'evidence' against them. Held in conditions which are dehumanising and frightening, subjected to sleep deprivation and 'mild' torture to ensure confessions (I know I'd telll them anything to make them stop. I'd give them any names I could think of it wouldn't matter whether that person was guilty or innocent). Five years. Think about that.

The two lads from Tipton and the one from Manchester spent two and half years in Guantanemo Bay and were eventually released with no charges. That's because they hadn't done anything. Like many of the unfortunate bastards in Guantanemo, they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Visiting Pakistan, crossed the border for a trip to somewhere (the two countries are very close and people hop across the border often)get caught up in the fighting and imprisoned by the Taleban.....then instead of the Americans liberatin those prisoners, they take them in as prisoners themselves.

There are cases of Iranian diplomats crossing into Iraq and being abducted and held by Coalition forces. Don't see much of that on the news.

There are also numerous cases of people going to the states and being taken into custody (why it's not certain, since they aren't allowed recourse to normal legal proceedings: therefore if it's a mix up on names there's no way for them to even know it, let alone prove they aren't who was being sought after) and then flown to other countries where torture is legal. One of these was a Canadian citizen who was on holiday in New York.

In Britain and Canada ( I don't know about other countries) Moslems and Indians are advised not to visit the United States unless they absolutely have to.

This isn't an American bashing gig. the UK and Europe are complicit in these acts. We have allowed planes, transporting prisoners to other countries for torture, to set down in Europe and refuel. In the UK, if someone is suspected of planning any kind of terrorist act they can be held without charge for a limited time. If a judge (note just a judge, there's no jury, no court, no chance to hear the evidence) decides that its in the country's interest that someone be incarcerated then they will be. If the judge decides that someone should be placed under house arrest, then they will be. The normal standards of evidence have been suspended. hearsay is enough.

[duck_duck]

Some things I have noticed about americans is they generally do not like the idea of torture unless they think it will save lives of their own people. Those involved in the abu ghraib were prosecuted and as for guantanamo bay, of course they are going to detain people they suspect as being involved in terrorism. America suffered a devastating attack from islam extremists so it is in their best interest to detain anybody they come across that might be involved with such terror groups. They even sentenced an american citizen to life in prison after they caught him fighting for the taliban and they were right to do so.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by duck_duck

Some things I have noticed about americans is they generally do not like the idea of torture unless they think it will save lives of their own people. Those involved in the abu ghraib were prosecuted and as for guantanamo bay, of course they are going to detain people they suspect as being involved in terrorism.


America suffered a devastating attack from islam extremists so it is in their best interest to detain anybody they come across that might be involved with such terror groups.


They even sentenced an american citizen to life in prison after they caught him fighting for the taliban and they were right to do so.

Hello duck duck, welcome to the cellar.

You've packed quite a lot into your short post there, which I edited for emphasis, because I want to talk about that middle part, but I didn't want to quote you without context.

Detain? Ok, I guess. But I have some questions for you. Sure, we Americans have "best interests", but *how* those interests are served is open to debate and the differences are CRUCIAL. Let me ask you to clarify some of those points.

You say "detain anybody". Anybody? How do you propose to decide who should be detained? Please fill in this big blank.

You also say "detained", as though the word is detached from its real world effect. All the attackers you alluded to earlier were present in the United States, so I ask you, what do you mean by "detain"? Arrest? Imprison? Abduct? Hold without charge? What is your position on extraordinary rendition?

You also say "might be involved with such terror groups", a comfortably broad and noble sounding phrase (if you're on the "good guys" side), but one that is begging for a little more precise definition for those of us who consider our nation's strength is based on our longstanding respect for and tradition of the rule of law.

I'll temporarily hold back my questions on your comments regarding torture.

I look forward to your reply.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by duck_duck's cellar bio

Age:
16
Biography:
I'm a simple person that views the world in simple terms.
Location:
over here
Interests:
cooking, shopping, reading

Your age and your "biography" speak volumes about the basis of your posts in this thread. Specifically, you come across as young and naive. You, at least, have these as reasonable excuses for your gross oversimplification of the circumstances under discussion. Sadly, many who feel as you do have no such excuse.

Originally Posted by duck_duck

It's all very simple to me, if you come across somebody suspicious in the combat zone then you detain them to determine who they are and what exactly they were doing there. You also detain anybody who you suspect has ties with terrorist organizations. In example if you see somebody speaking out in favor of al'queda or praising the attacks then it would be a good idea to detain, arrest, abduct, lock up or whatever your favorite choice of words are.

So you are talking about the rules of engagement in a combat zone. That is *not* my area of expertise. But I'll tell you this: if you get painted into the corner of responding the way you describe, you will empty the country. You may as well put a barbed wire fence on the borders complete with guard towers, because the suspicions are **HIGH** in those situations. Everybody's a suspect, and it is not possible to respond the way you describe. Shoot, if you don't have some level of suspiciousness of the people on the street, you're probably not paying enough attention.

As a domestic issue, an American issue, such actions are neither legal, nor effective, nor helpful. We outgrew those days (more than once, to our credit, witch trials and lynchings come to mind), and I pray we'll outgrow our current reactionary fears once more.

Originally Posted by duck_duck

Ok I don't know what extraordinary rendition means but the war against terrorists isn't about only catching those who planned the 911 strikes but it's about going after those who support and promote the ideology that is behind it, or at least it should be. They should be shutting down or locking up anybody that speaks out in favor of any radical muslim group.
This whole political correctness mentality concerning this war is foolish at best. You lock up a suspected terrorists to determine if he is a threat, you don't give them a jury and a lawyer that will find loopholes to get him off. In other words you do not treat him like a domestic criminal.

Gawd. "the war against terrorists"? Please, everybody, just stop drinking the kool-aid, m'kay? I'm sick sick sick of hearing about the GWOT or the TWAT or the TIAP etc etc. We do agree on this, however unlikely that accident may be, that the additional goals of the "war" should be that our ideology be chosen over any that promote death and destruction. It is absolutely tragic that such a distinction is now difficult to discern by so many. We agree on the end, but not the means.

Your means is doomed to failure. Your suggestion that we bludgeon our enemies into not hating us will not succeed. Can not succeed. Here's a news flash for you. The central theater of the GWOT is exactly where people were locked up, no trial, no lawyers, no questions. It is THE current <strike>fig leaf</strike> reason we're still there; "It'll be chaos if we leave!!" It's why we went; "Sadaam is a despot!" Your suggestions would have us become what we sought to destroy. No thank you.

Originally Posted by duck_duck

Since when has your nation had a long standing respect for the rule of law? Your judicial system is a joke and your country has ignored it's own laws since they were first written, especially in war time.
It seems now americans and british are more concerned about not offending somebody than they are about wiping out radical terror.

Now you're just being stupid. We'd had more than 200 years of the rule of law before your dad ever met your mom. Pay attention. If you're just gonna call names, we'll soon tire of each other. That'll be fine too, but if you want a dialog, at least check your facts before you open your mouth.

I'm confused--how is our complete disregard for our own laws manifesting itself as concern for not offending somebody? What?! As to wiping out radical terror--sure, I'll get right on that. Utterly Sisyphean (look it up yourself). Like trying to wipe out stupidity.

[Undertoad]

Telegraph: Buoyant Teheran warns of further kidnappings

Hardliners within the regime have been lining up to crow about Britain's humiliation, and indicated that the operation was planned.

Conservative parliamentarian Amir Hassankhani, a former member of the country's Revolutionary Guard and supporter of the president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, told the country's semi-official Fars news agency: "The arrest and release of the British sailors proved that if Iran's issues and demands are overlooked at the international level, the Islamic republic can create different challenges for the other side."

[TheMercenary]

The White House involvement in the hostages’ release has been confirmed. When the crisis broke, the US and Iraqi governments offered to help. Several initiatives were under way before the release, allowing officials to say that developments were coincidental.

First came the release last Tuesday of Jalal Sharafi, an Iranian diplomat missing in Iraq since February. A US administration source said he had been in a joint Iraqi and American facility, though this was denied by a British source.

On Wednesday the Red Cross was granted access to five Iranians who were detained by US forces in January in Iraq. Iran’s President Mah-moud Ahmadinejad announced the same day that the British captives could go home.

Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi foreign minister, said yesterday that he was pressing the Americans to release the five Iranian detainees, or at least to transfer them to Iraqi custody.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1626726.ece

[Undertoad]

Must-read: formerhostage explains how US Marines dealt with being Iranian hostages in 1979

Co-operate with the Iranians and you get out in two weeks. Fail to do so and it takes 444 days.

Co-operation means you wear what they tell you to, say you were treated well, and apologize to the Iranian people while shaking Ahmadinejad's hand for the cameras.

Not co-operating means Iran doesn't get a photo-op, happy PR, and the ability to threaten to take more hostages later.

The British servicemen chose to co-operate.

Here is the choice made by the US Marines.

When we were first taken, the Iranians took us into a room individually and asked us to sign a statement denouncing the US policy in Iran, Israel, the Shah, etc. The Marines signed with names such as Michael Mouse, Chesty Puller, Dan Daly (google the last two...Marine Corps legends), Harry Butz, etc.

During the ordeal they would try to tape us for propaganda purposes. Personally, I would keep looking down to the ground or hide behind others so that my face wouldn't show (in fact, after a couple of months of not seeing me in any of the videos my records I was classified as MIA). Another Marine and I shared the same cell and when they came in with cameras we'd strip down. I heard a rumor that one of the other Marines smeared ketchup on his face and started howling.

They day before they released us, we were taken to a room with a camera and Mary the Terrorist who was going to interview us. We were threatened that if we didn't say the right things we wouldn't be released. Some Marines gave only name rank and SSN, others sang (Marine Corps Hymn or God Bless America), others just said nothing.

On the day they let us go, I was being herded towards the airplane by a couple of those monkeys. I pulled my arm out of their grasp and let them know that "We're number one"...but used the wrong finger.

For our troubles we were isolated, thumped, went through two mock executions, starved, threatened, and had to put up with useful idiots from Amnesty International showing up just to let the world know how humane we were being treated.

Personally, I would co-operate. But I'm not a Marine. They are better men than I.

[piercehawkeye45]

On the day they let us go, I was being herded towards the airplane by a couple of those monkeys. I pulled my arm out of their grasp and let them know that "We're number one"...but used the wrong finger.

It was respectable until this.

Iran plays extremely dirty but to refer them as monkeys is uncalled for and immature.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

It was respectable until this.

Iran plays extremely dirty but to refer them as monkeys is uncalled for and immature.

You do the time. If you're going to play the empathy game, put yourself in the Marines' boots for a minute. They didn't create the mess in Iran.

[DanaC]

as for guantanamo bay, of course they are going to detain people they suspect as being involved in terrorism. America suffered a devastating attack from islam extremists so it is in their best interest to detain anybody they come across that might be involved with such terror groups. They even sentenced an american citizen to life in prison after they caught him fighting for the taliban and they were right to do so.

There is a vast difference between catching someone fighting for the enemy.....and merely suspecting them. Just because America suffered a devastating attack, does not mean they should be able to detain people for years at a time, with no evidence, merely because they happened to be in the vicinity. If they were enemy combatants, they should be treated as such. If they are not enemy combatants they should be dealt with in the judicial system, and able to form a defense against what may just be a false charge.

[DanaC]

That's very true. I cannot imagine I could go through something like that and walk away with no anger at all.

[TheMercenary]

extraordinary rendition

http://www.wulaw.wustl.edu/faculty/w...ners_s2006.pdf

[duck_duck]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

extraordinary rendition

http://www.wulaw.wustl.edu/faculty/w...ners_s2006.pdf

So in other words it means they move prisoners from one nation to another nation that has no laws against torture?

[duck_duck]

haha I knew this would degenerate to you or somebody else insulting me which is why I deleted my post. And where have I called you names?
Where was your wonderful tradition of the rule of law when you rounded up 120,000 japanese american civilians during world war 2 because you thought they were going to sabotage installations on the west coast?
If you were just interested in calling me stupid and insulting me then you should have done that on my first post because then I wouldn't have bothered replying to you.

[BigV]

Are you seriously suggesting that America does not have a longstanding respect for the rule of law? If you are, then you are stupid. If you are not, then you're calling names. You pick.

Since when has your nation had a long standing respect for the rule of law? Your judicial system is a joke and your country has ignored it's own laws since they were first written, especially in war time.