bac

[Tonchi]

I love going to "World Prayer Centers". The first time I toured the Temple in Salt Lake City, I got many horrified looks when I kept asking the guide what archaeological evidence they had for their description of the ancient civilizations in the Book of Mormon. They finally flustered around and told me to come back later and talk to one of their "authorities" on the subject. When I returned, I was shunted off to an office with a very pleasant man who was supposed to be a historian-cum-archaeologist and he recommended several texts for me which I copied down and bought at the Deseret Bookstore that afternoon. Most of their "evidence" turned out to be based on reliefs on the temples of Tuluum, and it's coincidental in my opinion. (If anybody cares, Tuluum happens to be one of the least ancient of all the ruin complexes in Mexico and simply could not fit into any of the Mormon timelines.) We already know that the Catherwood expeditions were in Meso-America around the time Joseph Smith was gearing up in upper NY state and he could have seen the engravings. But the main item that refutes their bogus "history", of course, is that the camels, horses, and even elephants which show up in the Book of Mormon simply did not exist in the new world that they describe and are NOT in any sculptures, reliefs, or writings - heck, the Jews in the Old Testament didn't even use elephants so how did they take them to the New World with them! As you can see, I don't go over very well in discussion with a closed society who only admits their own facts. But neither do I waste my time arguing with people who are already in possession of all the facts as far as they are concerned, I just want to understand what they believe and why because it makes me better able to analyze them instead of just over-reacting to somebody different. Afterwards, I may decide they disgust me anyway, but at least I will understand why there might be concrete reasons for my opinion.

I really don't think you can compare the Mormons with the BAC's. Both of these consider the other mutually excludable. Apocalyptic predictions are so common in the world of religions that we really can't lump together everybody who is teaching that the world is going to end and they will be the only ones saved. Even within the American sects, for instance, you can't associate the Southern Baptists with the Seventh Day Adventists, but both are waiting for the approaching Apocalypse. Remember Mel Gibson's little project about the Mayan underworld, etc.? The ancient Maya described the final destruction of the world in terms similar to Revelations in some ways; does that mean we can lump the Quiche Maya with the Jehovah's Witnesses for that reason? Nope, I think the BACs are a separate species, not really denominational. A species which can't even agree amongst themselves on all the terms and definitions.

[fargon]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) or Mormons, if you will, believes that if your are baptized in abstencia you will be a minor part of their church.

My X-Wife told me after 2 days of marrage that we were mormons and the classes would begin when we returned home. I was shocked and dismayed. She had gone so far as to join my church and even work with a Baptist Outreach as a counselor in the family ministry. I asked her where this came from ( I had known this woman for 20 years at this point and was still feeling shocked.)

She went on to say that my overly simplistic view of religon was based on the myth of the risen Christ and that Jesus came over to this side of the pond when he rose ( sounds contraditory, huh?). Then why are most Native American beliefs multithiestic and nature-based? One would assume that after his ministry in the Middle East he would have had some sucess over here. There's no evidence that He was here. Only the text that Joseph Smith wrote, and that is highly questionable.

Lucky you, Fargon! That must have been quite the shock! "Honey, we're Mormon!" Yeah, that's why Mormons are so into genealogy. They wanna baptize their dead ancestors and save them. Always sounded kind of selfish to me. If that's what they really believe, why not hold a single huge baptismal ceremoney for all who have gone before us? They could have a big whoop te do over it in the Tabernacle at Salt Lake!

Tonchi, my argument is more along the lines of devout Mormons, BAC's, and fundamentalist Muslims, among many others, sharing the same closed mind set. I'm talking about a sort of xenophobic "us vs. the rest of the world" mentality that leads to closed mindedness and religous intolerance. Certainly, they all have different theologies, but those theologies all lead to the same outlook.

[fargon]

While I want the entire world to embrace Jesus as Lord and Savior, I know that will not happen. I just don't like the way some people try to ram their belifes and religious practises down your throat, Then get mad when you decline the offer. All I can do is show the information and let you decide what you want to do.

[Tonchi]

When my uncle finally got sucked under after more than 50 years of fighting off his wife's Mormon relatives, he started collecting all the names and dates so he could take them to the temple and get his brownie points. He's now baptised my dead grandfather as Mormon but rather balked at accepting my grandmother who was the second wife and thus not really related to him. I suspect my cousins already grabbed Granddad long ago anyway, but my uncle has to follow orders so he does. There will be no further inroads into this generation, however, because I told the momster to pass on the word to him that if they try to do that to me after I can't fight back I will leave a letter to the temple with my lawyer that states I spit on their cult and all its phoney rituals. My sister feels the same way.

Mari, ALL these devout/orthodox/fanatical/inspired-directly-by-God religions form themselves into a closed society. (Nice article about the Lubavitch Jewish sect in the latest National Geographic, BTW) They weave this exclusivity into all kinds of declarations about the coming Apocalyse, which no doubt will come SOME day, but not because they had any inside information or can execute a magic formula that will bring it on. The Jehovah's Witnesses already had a major meltdown when their end-of-the-world declarations did not come to pass and the LDS had to do a reversal back in 1898 when Joseph Smith and Jesus decided to skip their Second Coming. Almost every Christian group in existance now or in the past has been left with egg on their faces when they ventured into doomsday predictions. It might be the one good thing you can say about Islam is that they don't go there

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by fargon

While I want the entire world to embrace Jesus as Lord and Savior, I know that will not happen. I just don't like the way some people try to ram their belifes and religious practises down your throat, Then get mad when you decline the offer. All I can do is show the information and let you decide what you want to do.

When someone truly believes that their way to salvation is the only true way, it becomes somewhat of a burden to those people because if they meet someone who doesn't share this belief, then they truly believe this person is going to suffer eternal damnation (fire and brimstone stuff - lucky I like the heat) unless they...blah blah blah.

If you saw someone was about to get run over by a truck, surely your conscience would compell you to warn them not to go there. Evangelicals generally, from my observations, feel the same way about going to hell. If they see someone headed in that direction, their consience will not allow them to sit idly by and allow it to happen.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

What does it say backwards?

"There's no escaping it."

[fargon]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

When someone truly believes that their way to salvation is the only true way, it becomes somewhat of a burden to those people because if they meet someone who doesn't share this belief, then they truly believe this person is going to suffer eternal damnation (fire and brimstone stuff - lucky I like the heat) unless they...blah blah blah.

If you saw someone was about to get run over by a truck, surely your conscience would compell you to warn them not to go there. Evangelicals generally, from my observations, feel the same way about going to hell. If they see someone headed in that direction, their consience will not allow them to sit idly by and allow it to happen.

I lost a very good friend many years ago because I did not know when to quit and let the Lord take over. While I don't want any body to go to hell, all I can do is present the information and pray for them in private. It is up to them to accept salvation. I just wish more BACs would take the time to read and understand the bible. Forcing people to believe does not work!

I can not let someone get run over by the proverbeable truck, but if they choose to be run over I can't do any thing but cry.

[Aliantha]

I agree...although if you believe in hell, I'd say that's where I'm going. Someone save my soul!!!

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by dov

I just had a conversation with someone close to me.

I took the side there are several intelligent bacs, (born agains.)

She held that an intelligent bac is an oxymoron.

Yes or No?

14

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by dov

My question confirmed that no bac will ever reveal he or she would do their best to assist in the herding 13 million Jews into Israel and then assist in anyway possible in the genocide of at least two thirds of the Jews, to bring forth the second coming, period. The rest of this thread is gift-wrapping. Bacs will not deny it and they will not admit it. I take it very seriously, life or death for family, community and myself, in fact. If you like to play ego head games, and impotent macho put downs, enjoy. I got what I came for, again, and again and again.

Spin spin spin away.

Originally Posted by Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by Romans 3 -- partial

What shall we conclude then? Are we (Jews -- mrnoodle)any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

I don't know what all this is about herding Jews (it's easy, just open a thrift shop [/rimshot]), but I've never heard of it until now. I even attend the top-secret Christian meetings where we plot world domination.

Perhaps you're referring to the fact that every time Israel turns its back on God, he does something to get its attention again. No one is looking forward to the next occurrence, believe me.