Hand wringing about Jill leaving.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

Lookout, sorry, but I disagree. I think that is an easy way out of addressing the problem.

My disagreement is the manner in which people "discuss" their differences.

I have had brief, but interesting discussions with Flint and Classicman in which we disagreed, but we were respectful.

That is not the case with one member here. One who, in my experience, is always the first to start with the name-calling (pussy, asshole, loser,...), who arrogantly refuses to provide facts to support his position when requested but instead demands that others prove him wrong and who broadly categorizes anything he doesnt agree with as biased or propaganda (including facts like text of laws).

If you think the discussions could be better, my suggestion is to start with the biggest deterrent.

I get that he is a "valued" member of the community. If the community wants to skirt around it and doesnt want to address, then so be it.

If that is the case, its no big deal. Those who want a more civil and respectful discussion of political issues will find it elsewhere.

added:
And, yes, I am guilty of responding in less than the most respectful manners at times, but I would urge you to look at the discussions in the totality.

UG's not a "valued member of the community" to me. I generally skip his posts except when I'm in a sarcastic, short tempered mood. You could post ANYTHING to UG and he'd either ignore it or else call you some unpleasant name.

I think next time I see one of his posts, I am going to reply by copying some segment of the Constitution purely as a scientific experiment. I wonder if he'll tell me to "put my crack pipe down."

I disagree with UT about forums that allow members to give rep points. The system seems to work pretty well on another forum I'm on. Of course that place is huge, and sometimes the number of rep points can help gauge a poster's reliability. But that forum is heavily moderated. In fact, I bet almost everyone from the Cellar would get banned from it in a few days! I'm always watching my step there.

Part of the reason I like this place is because I can type the word "fuck" and not have it censored. But part of the reason I don't like the politics forum is that vicious personal attacks are allowed - the language used there is far worse than "fuck."

[Fair&Balanced]

Originally Posted by SamIam

UG's not a "valued member of the community" to me. I generally skip his posts except when I'm in a sarcastic, short tempered mood. You could post ANYTHING to UG and he'd either ignore it or else call you some unpleasant name.

I think next time I see one of his posts, I am going to reply by copying some segment of the Constitution purely as a scientific experiment. I wonder if he'll tell me to "put my crack pipe down."

I disagree with UT about forums that allow members to give rep points. The system seems to work pretty well on another forum I'm on. Of course that place is huge, and sometimes the number of rep points can help gauge a poster's reliability. But that forum is heavily moderated. In fact, I bet almost everyone from the Cellar would get banned from it in a few days! I'm always watching my step there.

Part of the reason I like this place is because I can type the word "fuck" and not have it censored. But part of the reason I don't like the politics forum is that vicious personal attacks are allowed - the language used there is far worse than "fuck."

I've never had any interactions with UG, but I do get a good laugh out of his posts.

I guess I wasnt clear enough. In my experience, Mercenary is the primary instigator and the one who has two sets of rules, one for himself and one for those who challenge his opinions with their own.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by Fair&Balanced

That is not the case with one member here.

Then police yourself. If that one member is offering you no value then ignore them. You can either do that by just not reading the posts or by putting them on ignore status.

And SIA, I'm glad you enjoy that other forum but if UT were to start something along those lines in the cellar I don't think it would work. Actually the cellar would probably become a much friendlier place but it would be at the cost of a large portion of long term dwellars.

[Fair&Balanced]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Then police yourself. If that one member is offering you no value then ignore them. You can either do that by just not reading the posts or by putting them on ignore status.

And SIA, I'm glad you enjoy that other forum but if UT were to start something along those lines in the cellar I don't think it would work. Actually the cellar would probably become a much friendlier place but it would be at the cost of a large portion of long term dwellars.

Sure, I could ignore him.

But, looking at the bigger picture, I dont think that will make the political forum any better or more informative.

Rather than police myself, why not address the larger issue? Reading through this thread, I am not the only one who identified this problem person.

[lookout123]

Go ahead and move to get him banned. Even if the mods did ban him it wouldn't change the level of discourse on political issues because while merc's posting habits are so over the top he's really just an amplified example of what passes as political debate here. At the end of the day I don't really care if he stays or goes I just think it is silly to pretend he's the source of all the problems. If you really think he's a troll and adds no value then IGNORE him. If a troll is genuinely ignored then they aren't getting what they want and will either change or go away on their own.

It's kind of like the kindergartener saying "teacher teacher I don't like the way billy plays with the blocks. He won't do it the way I want him to." Fuck it. Don't play with him. Either he'll get bored having no friends to play with and change or he'll continue to be ignored.

[Fair&Balanced]

I didnt suggest banning anyone. Nor did I suggest he is the source of all the problems. But to address the tone and manner of discussion, IMO, you should start with the worst offender.

As to ignoring him, while I dont pretend to know it all, when I see blatantly false information posted (as opposed to opinion), I think the community is better served by challenging the post with facts rather than letting false information be perpetuated.

I've had my say. The community will do as it wishes.

[lookout123]

We've had TW posting blatantly false information for years. This is nothing new.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not defending merc's style. I generally don't read what he has written. My point in all this is that you're an adult, if what he types on the internet bothers you so much then ignore it because you already know you aren't going to have a rational give and take on these contentious issues.

[Bullitt]

Exactly lookout.

If you don't like the way the discussion is going, change it yourself by only speaking to people you find reasonable. Simple as that. Your experience here is what you make of it, no one else dictates it.

[Griff]

Because of the nature of the lefty pack here, I don't know that simply ignoring is doable. Merc will broadcast spam across the board and someone will respond.

What about this? Anytime someone has a problem with mercs behavior s/he posts Morocco for verbal abuse and South Vietnam for falsehoods

Don't reply in kind and don't engage in conversation unless he is on his meds.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by lookout123

I don't think anything structural needs to change in the cellar. The beauty of the cellar is that it is a self policing community. I've been to other communities that are heavily moderated and regulated and they suck. Personally I don't like some of the changes I've seen in the culture of the cellar in the last few years. I have the ability to either whine about it (which I have), try to be a catalyst for what I'd like to see (I'm not so good at that), or leave (which I've done for months at a time). That's self regulation and it works. While I have zero respect for a couple of dwellars I dont' want some system in place where we vote their comments in or out of the threads. They're free to be assholes and I'm free to respond how I see fit.

For me I think the cellar is just a sympton of a much larger problem in our society. This is a reflection of discourse in the world now. Ideas are really not that important anymore except as a banner to wave pretentiously in support of our political/social identity. The right believes they are superior to the left because they're "more patriotic and american", "stand for values", and are obviously much more intelligent. The left believes they are superior to the right "because they care about the middle class", "believe in compassion", and are obviously much more intelligent.

It seems most people refuse to consider that two people can look at the exact same data and come to drastically different conclusions not because one is brilliant, kind, and pretty while the other is stupid, evil, and smelly. We have all experienced life differently and because of that have different priorities and different views of what the ideal society would be.

Of course those we have voted to rule our lives benefit by keeping us divided so they stir the pot with rhetoric to keep us battling right v left, rich v poor, black v white, red state v blue state. No one wins except the ruling class.

Goddamn but you're sexy when you're right :p

I agree with this. I don't particularly want to see increased moderation in the Cellar.

I do think it's useful now and then for us to air this stuff though. If for no other reason than it lets people who've perhaps been under the impression that we're all cool with the shitslinging know that actually they're not alone and the problem has a wider recognition.

[footfootfoot]

Protect us from ourselves. Would there be a troll problem if everyone just completely ignored trolls? No there wouldn't, but people can't seem to controll (haha) themselves.

On second thought, I don't like the idea of thought police and have to agree with Bullitt and Lookout, who I don't really find sexy, but that's just me.

[Nirvana]

TWAT!

Oh wait...

What?

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by Griff

Because of the nature of the lefty pack here, I don't know that simply ignoring is doable. Merc will broadcast spam across the board and someone will respond.

Are you talking about the fact that the majority of dwellars are left of center or are you talking about particular posting habits?

[DanaC]

No way are the majority of posters left of centre.

My own reading of dwellars is that most are a combination of left of centre and right of centre views. A lot of dwellars are, for instance, socially progressive and economically conservative.

[lookout123]

Your center may be a bit different than mine. It seems most brits think CNN is a hard right wing propaganda machine. I may be exaggerating that a bit, but you get the point.