Does Anyone feel like Bailing

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Redux

SKeptism is fine.....but hardly a constructive comment.

I stated, I didn't think it wouldn't work, and why.

What dont you like about the bill to re-regulate banks and financial services?

I don't think it will accomplish what is needed to fix the problem.

What would you propose as an alternative?

I told you...

What needs to happen is a change of attitude, a change of culture.

Its easy to be a skeptic (in your case) and a blatant partisan (mercenary) critic ....but I rarely, if ever, see anything offered for discussion here in the way of a positive solution from those who consistently just bitch and moan.

Positive solution? Kill half the fuckers and the other half will change their attitude. I guaranty that will work better than any pie in the sky legislation.
Do you really think that hoard of Junior Madoffs give a shit about rules? No fucking way, it's all about the Benjamins.
They call themselves a bank, but they're about as far from a bank as possible. Banks profit by providing a service to the public, those piggies profit by manipulating and bleeding the public, and the taxpayer.

For Christ's sake...how about something more than bitching and moaning and complaining for a change.

Fuck you, I gave you the solution...

The only thing we can do is stop dealing with these piggies.

Starve the fuckers to death. But you're all wrapped up in making more fucking rules for them to twist, vault, and end run.
You sound like a high school teacher in the ghetto.... "Oh, they're really good boys, they just need a firm hand, a little guidance, and they won't kill anyone else, your honor." Yeah, right.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I stated, I didn't think it wouldn't work, and why.
I don't think it will accomplish what is needed to fix the problem.

I told you...

Positive solution? Kill half the fuckers and the other half will change their attitude. I guaranty that will work better than any pie in the sky legislation.
Do you really think that hoard of Junior Madoffs give a shit about rules? No fucking way, it's all about the Benjamins.

They call themselves a bank, but they're about as far from a bank as possible. Banks profit by providing a service to the public, those piggies profit by manipulating and bleeding the public, and the taxpayer.

Fuck you, I gave you the solution... Starve the fuckers to death. But you're all wrapped up in making more fucking rules for them to twist, vault, and end run.

You sound like a high school teacher in the ghetto.... "Oh, they're really good boys, they just need a firm hand, a little guidance, and they won't kill anyone else, your honor." Yeah, right.

Sounds like more bitching and moaning to me.

Kill half the fuckers and the rest will change? Starve the fuckers to death? No need to rules.

Very practical solutions.

Carry on.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

how about something more than bitching and moaning and complaining for a change.

Originally Posted by classicman

. . . or a partisan poster who just tows the party line. Whats the difference?

You took a shot a very well respected poster which was uncalled for. You have been posting the party line incessantly since you got back here.
You try to discredit anyone who doesn't agree with "your party" and what they are doing. FSM forbid any others who disagree. You seem to act/post as though anyone who doesn't like what "your party" is doing must be stupid or a neo-con. Its the same old tired "D" is good "R" is bad. Thats the culture and attitude that created the environment we are in and many Americans are unhappy with. Unfortunately you ARE part of that culture. Perhaps thats the problem.

Originally Posted by Redux

Any time you want to discuss issues rather than just post a link with a comment of "interesting"......let me know or offer something constructive for a change.

If I find articles "interesting" to me, I share them. No different than reading and rewriting their points as some do.

Originally Posted by classicman

You took a shot a very well respected poster which was uncalled for. You have been posting the party line incessantly since you got back here.
You try to discredit anyone who doesn't agree with "your party" and what they are doing. FSM forbid any others who disagree. You seem to act/post as though anyone who doesn't like what "your party" is doing must be stupid or a neo-con. Its the same old tired "D" is good "R" is bad. Thats the culture and attitude that created the environment we are in and many Americans are unhappy with. Unfortunately you ARE part of that culture. Perhaps thats the problem.


If I find articles "interesting" to me, I share them. No different than reading and rewriting their points as some do.

My issue is not about agreeing with me. It is about having a contructive discussion.
(hmmmm and you and Merc dont repeatedly discredit those who disagree with you...with your "same old parisan D bullshit"....sound familiar)

Pot calling kettle!

Sorry but I dont find a commenty of "Kill half the fuckers and the rest will change? Starve the fuckers to death" very helpful.

If that is a shot at a well respected member...too fucking bad.

I know its easier for you and Merc to take your shots at me then to actually engage in a discussion.

Fine.. have at it!

I can get as down and dirty as you if you want to go that way.

[classicman]

sigh. Way to not address any of the points made and to twist the conversation, paint with the broadest of brushes and ignore other opinions.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I like reading your posts and respect your opinions, well most of the time, but lately you seem to be doing nothing more that regurgitating your party's line so much that I can get EXACTLY what you say from any liberal rag or website.

Originally Posted by classicman

sigh. Way to not address any of the points made and to twist the conversation, paint with the broadest of brushes and ignore other opinions.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I like reading your posts and respect your opinions, well most of the time, but lately you seem to be doing nothing more that regurgitating your party's line so much that I can get EXACTLY what you say from any liberal rag or website.

Facts are a stubborn thing...and so is your double slandard.

No one else, including you, regurgitates partisan sites or talking points? Bullshit.

Or Merc's blatanly false posts (the Dems in the 90s and Barney Frank forced the issue that resulted in the sub-prime fiasco and all his health care crap) should go w/o a challenge? Bullshit.

Where is your "sigh" when Merc plays the Nazi card? Or when UG characterizes everyone left of him as a socialist?

Or a response of "Kill half the fuckers and the rest will change? Starve the fuckers to death" from Bruce is a constructive response to my quesiton...if you dont like the Democratic proposal, what would you suggest as an alternative? Bullshit.

[classicman]

Talking points repeatedly posted still do not become facts.
Merc is his own man and I've called him out plenty of times.
Nice try though.

Originally Posted by classicman

Talking points repeatedly posted still do not become facts.
Merc is his own man and I've called him out plenty of times.
Nice try though.

I get it.

I bring up the fact there is now a bill in Congress to address the issue of bail-outs, sub-primes, etc.

Bruce offers a response of ""Kill half the fuckers and the rest will change? Starve the fuckers to death" as a solution.

Merc screams snake oil salesman.

And I'm the disruptive partisan when I all I suggested was that it be discussed and others can offer other solutions.

But its clear that some dont want a discussion.

Well, in the words used often around here....FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE!

[classicman]

I don't know about you, but I can't recall me ever saying that to anyone - maybe tw, but that was years ago. Heck I even sent him a Christmas card this year.

BTW, People made a few jokes on here (SHOCK) and you got all pissy. I never said you were disruptive. I thought your attack on Bruce was uncalled for and said so.

[tw]

Wacko Republican trying to have an informed discussion? Hardly. Instead is the sniping from caves – complete with a denial of the problem and zero solutions.

We know corruption in the finance industry is widespread. Directly traceable to a philosophy encouraged by a wacko political agenda. "The purpose of a company is profits." So we all suffer the consequences ten (ie AIG, Enron) and thirty (GM) years later. And then blame anybody but wacko extremists who wanted it? More sniping from their caves.

One of the greatest frauds were derivatives. To reap profits in this money game, the fraudsters must hide it in complex (hundreds of pages) contracts and in secret bi-lateral deals (CDOs, SIVs). And then pervert the accounting since, as one executive once told me (after drinking too much beer), "He makes the spread sheets say what they have to say." After all, only profit are important (and the resulting K Street brides).

The problems Redux has accurately identified were obvious even with Long Term Capital Management. Some ten years ago when wacko extremist Republicans were actively subverting the regulations even back then. Instead we encouraged even more corruption - along with the back room K Street corruption that made so much of it possible. K Street deals greased the wheels for any Congressman whose philosophy was, "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter."

Number one and most essential to undoing this disaster - part of a solution that will take at least ten years: derivatives must be traded on open markets. Essential so that Enrong accounting cannot continue - economic clamity not hidden in secret derivatives. Only then will counter-parties really know who is and who is not fiscally stable. Absolutely necessary so that another liquidity crisis does not occur when money will (and it is coming probably starting first quarter next year) get tighter.

The world is worth somewhere between $7trillion and $8trillion dollars. Takes assets (ie homes). Bundle those mortgages into mortgage backed securities. Then declare those mortgages as another asset (corrupt accounting). Automatically, the economy is richer. Then bundle those new assets into another derivative - SIV (special investment vehicles) cloaked in massive (unreadable) contracts. Then declare that an asset on manipulated spread sheets (ie Enron accounting that is still legal). Then insure those contracts with CDOs. And relabel that insurance as 'not insurance' (thanks to Republican congress subversion of regulation); as another asset. All this made possible by wacko extremist attacks on regulators.

IOW a world worth maybe $7.5 trillion now has $604 trillion new wealth created by derivatives. Money games openly encouraged by those who fear regulation. The world still has only $7 some trillion in actual things. But the finance industry has reaped massive profits by inventing assets. Using spread sheet games to claim the world is worth another $604 trillion. Notice the numbers what wacko extremists never provide when sniping from caves.

Wackos said this was good. Said we should not reign in fiscal prostitution. After all, perversion (SIVs, CDOs, etc) is a business that should not be regulated even after LTCM proved otherwise. Resulting campaign contributions to both Democrats and mostly to Republicans were too large. Wackos from both parties told their worshippers what to parrot from their caves.

The one industry that is historically most corrupt is the finance industry. Bankers are nothing more than sophisticated tellers. Why should the teller make more money than those who actually produce things? Finance never produces useful products. Finance has only one purpose - a servant to those who actually make America great. To provide liquidity and economic stability so that finance markets do not corrupt the creation and production of innovations.

First subvert the mortgage industry. Then blame the customers who bought the products. Then dump the entire mess only anyone but the finance people – who in turn take massive bonuses. And from the caves, “This is good”.

Many American industries need little regulation. History has repeatedly identified the finance industry needing most regulation. Finance people are productive when they are paid less than worker in other industries. After all, bankers and stock brokers are nothing more than better trained tellers and salesmen.

Which industries need least regulation? Ones in which the product is more important. “The purpose of a company is its products. To service the customer – not top management.” Which industries advance mankind, make America economically powerful, raise the American standard of living, and create jobs? This nation’s most responsible industries that provide products; that do not play finance games (as GM did). Companies and industries that need the least regulation also work for the customer and therefore advance America.

A responsible finance industry means stock brokers outperform the market. But that means they work for the customer; not maximize profits with finance games and salesman myths. Exactly why the finance industry needs heavy regulation and the transparency created by open markets. Exactly why international standards (opposed by political extremists) such as Basel 1 and Basel 2 were so important. Exactly why business school graduates (Wagoner, Skilling, Allen, Nardelli, Fiorina, Naser, Akers, Ford, etc) subvert America for their own benefit. Then blame everything or foreigners so that we will ignore their “purpose of a company is profits” corruption.

Who are some of America’s greatest assets? Immigrants. And so extremists deny any company TARP money if they hire H1B immigrants – the same employees that the Silicon Valley most needs. But then extremist want TARP to be a profit center; not advance America.

Redux has identified where problems lay. And has offered viable solutions.

Details are subject to scrutiny. But the bottom line – this economic meltdown is directly traceable to American wackos who said, “the purpose of a company is profits”. Extremists with no solutions are the same who cheered Harvey Pitts as he subverted the SEC – as only extremists wanted. Subvert regulations to make Maddof possible. And who now take cheap shots at regulation necessary to make LTCM, Enron, the CA energy crisis, and a thirty to one debt to equity ratio impossible. My god. Suddenly investment banks must also meet Basel 2? Extremists called that foreigners trying to subvert America!

From LTCM management even a decade ago – derivatives must be traded on open markets. Essential for transparency to keep markets stable. So that markets do not again freeze – which is still possible if we do not fix the problem before paying back that $700 billion. Yes, we will pay back the $700 billion that was borrowed from where – with interest? Before that happens, we must regulate and impose transparency on those created this mess. Extremists don’t like that. It says they were wrong. It says "Deficits do matter." Which is why extremists can only snipe from their caves and offer no solutions.

[ZenGum]

Ahh, it was like he was never away.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Redux

I get it.

I bring up the fact there is now a bill in Congress to address the issue of bail-outs, sub-primes, etc.

Bruce offers a response of ""Kill half the fuckers and the rest will change? Starve the fuckers to death" as a solution.

No you don't, you still don't get it. You want to craft carefully constructed bills to address the past. That's not going to help keep a bunch of self entitled mother fuckers from coming up with new ways to steal.

But Chrysler, now known as Old Carco L.L.C., filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization plan in which the company said it planned on giving nothing back to the government for its $3.7-billion claim, which comes from loans under the Troubled Asset Relief Program. But the plan, filed in New York, said the company will repay some other lenders in full.

Cerberus Capital Management of New York, who owned Chrysler and was flush with cash, took the money, sold the good shit to Fiat, named the bad shit that was left Old Carco L.L.C.,(get it, old car company), filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, and said Fuck You to the taxpayers.

Oh sure, they're worried about your stinkin' rules.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No you don't, you still don't get it. You want to craft carefully constructed bills to address the past. That's not going to help keep a bunch of self entitled mother fuckers from coming up with new ways to steal.....

No. I get it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to be of the belief that regulations wont be 100% successful, so whats the use. IMO, that is not skeptical, but cynical.

I agree some will find a way to circumvent regulations just as those intent on committing armed robbery are not deterred by laws.

So we should not even attempt to regulate abuses?

That should never preclude us from learning from past abuses and imposing regulations that provide greater assurances that they cannot be repeated.

It sure as hell makes more sense and offers a more constructive approach than ""Kill half the fuckers and the rest will change? Starve the fuckers to death" (oh, I get it, that was supposed to be humerous)

*waiting for Classic to tell me that I am picking on Bruce again.*

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Redux

No. I get it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to be of the belief that regulations wont be 100% successful, so whats the use.

Your wrong. I never said, "so whats the use". They're beating around the bush.

In my last post I described how Cerberus blackmailed the administration out of $3.7 Billion by threatening to lay off all the Chrysler workers, and screw Chrysler's suppliers, causing more layoffs, while Cerberus was in fat city. Now Cerberus/Fiat/Mercedes owns the good shit(Jeep), the bad shit(Old Carco) goes belly up screwing investors/suppliers, and Cerberus pockets billions of our fucking money!

When are they going to put a stop to these thieves, and their slick lawyers, screwing everybody with dirty rotten, but legal, shenanigans?
Clue... they're not.

[spudcon]

For the first time in my journey here in the Cellar, I agree with some of TWs post. But it is more like getting back to basics. Regulating derivatives etc won't stop the abuse. Doing away with most instruments that don't have a sound product/service behind them will stop them. No more futures speculating, return to the gold standard. Ordinarily, these steps would cause job losses in the short run, but we're already in a 10+% unemployment now, having nowhere to invest but solid products, the only ones who would lose would be the same ones we are all bitching about.
Now if we could only find someone to regulate government.