Has our intelligence dropped to zero already?

[mrnoodle]

My brother's 2 year old daughter is the same way. She gets snooty from time to time, tests her boundaries, etc. But if my brother says "No" sternly, it almost breaks her heart. She lies down on the floor facedown until the unimaginable pain goes away.

Not so with her mom. She'll just turn her head away and sneer. I think it's because they're both women.

[wolf]

Young children are remarkably similar to mules, however, you often need to use different methodologies to get them to see things your way.

While I understand the school district's apparent policy regarding "no touch" I work with a number of different schools and school districts that allow for a "therapeutic hold" (which usually requires a buttload of documentation to justify it after the fact).

Staff are specifically trained to do such things ... you can't just jump on a kid and hold them down until they stop screaming, sometimes because in those kinds of situations, not screaming = unconscious or dead. There is a right way, and if you have the certification, you can justify the use of the hold.

The kid in the video is not merely the poster child for Ritalin, I think she's probably the poster child for horse tranquilizers.

My own school experience lacked paddles (even during my brief tenure in Catholic School), but I did detour around a little scene in my high school where a gym teacher was in the midst of a learning experience that involved throwing one of the stoners into a bunch of lockers and a lot of very loud instruction. The student seemed to understand the lesson after that.

BigV, sorry to hear about the death in your family. I wish you peace, understanding, and healing.

[dar512]

Thanks for responding, Glatt. I think we're basically in agreement.

[OnyxCougar]

I'm sorry about the sad news, Big. My thoughts are with you.

[BigV]

This topic is stealing my rest. I cannot sleep well. I want peace. Here goes.

Zero-th: If you think that handcuffing the little girl was an inexcusable overreaction by the police, you are excused from the following long-ass post. If, on the other hand, you think there was any justification for the actions of the school staff or the police, you are welcome to read on as I try to explain myself. You may learn something, but if you don't, stay away from my kids. Far, far away.

First, what's not at issue here. Folks, parenting is important. It is most important. It's so important that we have a whole forum full of threads full of advice and conversation and support. So stipulated.

Second, I know threads drift, get hijacked, wander. I wish to redirect our focus on the point that is most important.

Now, this part of the conversation began with an item about the authorities reaction to a student's behavior. Sadly and surprisingly, there have been plenty of examples. In all the examples, there have been voices on both sides of the issue. Some say that the response was appropriate. Some say that the response was inappropriate. Bounteous argumentation was enjoyed by all.

I wish to talk about the most recent incident, the little girl that was handcuffed at her kindergarten. This was wrong. This was a mistake of the first order. I have read all the posts subsequent to my introduction of the story. Rather than cheer the points I agree with and refute the ones I disagree with, point by point, I will imagine I am speaking to the child's teacher, or to her vice principal, or to my child's school's staff. I'm speaking to the adults responsible for my children while they're at school. In this imaginary conversation, I'll refer to the points made by my friends here in the cellar. I may refer to them or my imaginary school person, the imagined adult responsible for my child, may refer to them.

The key here is that the adults are the ones responsible.

You have an enormous responsibility. Your work is difficult and rewarding. Frustrating and fulfilling. Important and undervalued. When I send my child off to kindergarten, I'm putting him in your hands for a little while. I get him back later, you get the day shift and I get graveyard and swing. Same kid back and forth. You count on me to get him there, on time, clean, rested, prepared for another day of fun, and if there's some learning snuck in, so much the better *wink wink*. I try to make sure that he's in a maximally receptive state for what he faces in kindergarten.

It's a big place, kindergarten. Waaay bigger than home. Bigger than daycare. So many kids, big kids, and bigger adults, people he doesn't even know. And so much to take in! Papers and books and games and puzzles and songs and just everything. The transition from home to kindergarten is on the same scale as the transition from school to work. Remember those days? Find a place to live? Pay bills? Buy food? File taxes? What's that about?!? Get here do this fix that!! So many rules to follow, some written and some not. It was not so long ago that you don't remember the high points and the low ones. It's a big change and sometimes you were unable to cope. Fortunately you have your family and friends to rely on for help.

Kindergarten's different in this way though, my son has you to rely on for help when he can't cope.

When he can't get that math thing, grrr, I know you'll help him. You have those teaching skills you learned back in school. Just lay it out in a different way and it'll be clear. When he's stuck with reading, just say it in a new way and show him how to overcome that obstacle. When there's confusion and conflict with his classmates, use your wisdom to bring reconciliation. If he's sad one day, talk to him and comfort him. You're his advocate, his friend. When he falls on the playground and skins his knees, break out the first aid. If he's sick, send him to the nurse.

Whew, I'm tired out just saying all that. And I've covered, what, 1% of one day's challenges. You'll certainly have to use your judgement all the time. What's that? You're saying you suspect dyslexia is the root of the math trouble? We'll call the doctor. Reading problem is because he's an ESL student? We'll try to use more English at home. Sad and listless in class? No, I don't think he's sick, we had a death in the family this week. Trouble getting along with his classmates? Yeah, we're seeing trouble with his siblings too. We don't know why yet. Wipeout on the playground? Is he ok?! Whew, thanks for helping him. A fever? 101.5? Yes, I'll be there as soon as I can.

*steps out of story* You get the idea. Definitely a dialog between the teacher and the parent. But the point is that the teacher isn't alone. She (my son's teacher is a woman) has tools, she has support, she has people to consult, just as I do as a parent. But she's the adult in charge, on the spot. It's up to her, not my child, to make the right call in a given situation. Now sometimes that right call is a little benign neglect. I don't expect her to read for him, or solve his math problems or do everything for him. It's ok for him to struggle with it some. Not to the point of surrender in frustration, but she should let him try to work through the problem. Actually, this strategy is used all the time in all situations with the kids, at home and at school. Let them do for themselves while they can, and when they've reached their limit, step in and end the activity or finish it off for them.

Parents and teachers EVERYWHERE do this. Having trouble coloring and the kid's reached the crayon-breaking point. Bzzzt! Time to quit and move on to something else. Stymied with those *&^#&$% shoelaces? Ok, I'll tie them for you. When the limit is reached, the adult/parent/teacher has to step in and make a decision. In this particular case, it seems clear that the kid has lost control of herself. This sometimes happens and though loud and dramatic, is not by itself an emergency. When it happens in the frozen foods section because I won't buy the popsicles he wants, it's embarassing, but not an emergency. What's called for is some restraint. And just like coloring or shoelaces when the kid's resevoirs of restraint are dry, the adult must compensate. That means the restraint has to come from the adult. Both personal restraint to not overreact, and loaned restraint, for the child. Hold him. Speak calmly and lowly in his ear. It's right there, remember your arms are around him. Reassure him. Soothe him. Remove him from the situation. This did not happen in this case, and that's the first mistake revealed by the video.

Originally Posted by every misguided legalist apologist

You can't touch him! Call your school!

I've heard enough of that crap.

As a matter of fact, I did call my school. I spoke to the principal. The rule is that the teachers and administrators are permitted and urged to use their judgement. It says that the teacher or administrator is allowed to use an appropriate amount of restraint to keep the kid from hurting himself or endangering others. He further said that if there's a question as to whether the restraint can be applied in a way that is safe for all parties, he may indeed call the cops. For example, if he is faced with a big kid that is "blown out", he may escalate the response to include the cops.

In the example of the five year old girl, if it had happened at my kid's school, you'd never have heard about it because the kid's tantrum would have been allowed to come to a natural and safe and quick end because she'd have been calmed down by the adults around her, with a long hug, maybe minutes long, and with soothing talk. It would not have been inflamed by a teacher towering over her, repeating the same ineffective chant. Dude, it is not working, time to switch to plan b.


Ok, she did switch, but to plan...e or f: Call the principal's office. That's a good plan. Tragically, the vice principal was no more adept at dealing with children than the hapless teacher. The vp was plenty big enough to restrain this child, she is just a little five year old girl. But she didn't. All that sidestepping in the office while the papers float to the floor--that's not restraint. That's playing zone defense, protecting her desk. Pitiful. Watch it again. All she does is move in an arc around her desk. She doesn't restrain the child. What would she have done if she thought the child would hurt herself, say by stabbing herself with a pencil or some scissors. Where's the hands off policy now? "Just don't bleed on the carpet"?

So everyone in the school is unable to restrain and calm this child. How sad, how f*ckin pitifully sad. "I can't do this!", so call the cops. I guess they're following the same policy as my school. But the level of competence displayed before throwing up the hands and calling the cavalry is vanishingly small.

I know less about police procedures than I do about school procedures. Maybe the rules say they gotta handcuff you. But I've talked to the cops plenty of times. I represent a vastly greater physical threat than that little girl, and I'm a handcuff virgin. Who will talk to this little girl? Who will have compassion? Who will listen to her? Who will advocate for her? Who?

And more frighteningly, if this is our response to the tantrum of a five year old girl in kindergarten, how will we react when something more dangerous confronts us?

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by BigV

In the example of the five year old girl, if it had happened at my kid's school, you'd never have heard about it because the kid's tantrum would have been allowed to come to a natural and safe and quick end because she'd have been calmed down by the adults around her, with a long hug, maybe minutes long, and with soothing talk. It would not have been inflamed by a teacher towering over her, repeating the same ineffective chant. Dude, it is not working, time to switch to plan b.

I honestly hadn't thought of this approach, and it looks good on the surface. But what happens when a parent objects? How long to hold a child, and at what distance? How could the video have shown what was being whispered in the ear? Where's the line between good touching and bad touching if you are restraining a child? Don't give me the logical answer, give me the lawyer's answer. This is a litigious society, and that teacher was hobbled by it. She can't lose her job over one tantrum. Calling the cops for a 5 year old is silly, but in the heat of the moment, terrified of angry parents and school boards, the teacher did what she thought was best.

[lookout123]

BigV - it is ridiculous, but - BUT - we don't know anything other than what we see on this video. who don't know how this student behaves normally, we don't know of previous problems, we don't know about previous interaction with the parents, etc. i'm not saying that the school was right or wrong - i am saying we don't know all the facts.

i know one thing for sure - i will watch a 5 year old be handcuffed before i allow myself to run the risk of being dragged to court by some parent who doesn't like the fact that i held their kid in a way that they don't appreciate. teachers aren't there to teach discipline and good behaviour. the parents are responsible for teaching the child it is inappropriate to throw over the top temper tanturms. the teacher is supposed to teach reading, writing, mathmatics, and revisionist history.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by lookout123

BigV - it is ridiculous,

Yes. It is. Don't qualify it to death. It's inexcusable.

Originally Posted by lookout123

but - BUT - we don't know anything other than what we see on this video. who don't know how this student behaves normally, we don't know of previous problems, we don't know about previous interaction with the parents, etc. i'm not saying that the school was right or wrong - i am saying we don't know all the facts.

too late.

Originally Posted by lookout123

i know one thing for sure - i will watch a 5 year old be handcuffed before i allow myself to run the risk of being dragged to court by some parent who doesn't like the fact that i held their kid in a way that they don't appreciate. --snip--

Ok, l123. Let me ask you this. I'm trying to listen to what you're saying and I think it's this:

As a teacher,i know one thing for sure - i will watch a 5 year old be handcuffed before i allow myself to run the risk of being dragged to court by some parent who doesn't like the fact that i held their kid in a way that they don't appreciate.

Italics mine. You have a reasonable fear of being sued by the parent. Ok.

Could you with equal ease say this:

As a parent, i know one thing for sure - i will watch a 5 year old be handcuffed before i allow myself to run the risk of being dragged to court by some parent who doesn't like the fact that i held their kid in a way that they don't appreciate.

Italics mine. I wonder...

And if you can would you further say this:

As a parent, I would rather see my 5 year old handcuffed than risk having him be held by his teacher, because I might not appreciate it.

(Hey, paraphrased you instead of mangling the syntax.)

If it's YOUR KID, what's your call? Cuff'em or hug'em?

And if it's not your kid? Same rules or not? If not, why not?

The rules I spoke of do not permit inappropriate touching. In fact I reported "appropriate restraint is permitted". Shit, just because the cop CAN handcuff the kid doesn't mean he can feel up the kid. Just because the rules say a teacher can restrain a kid doesn't mean the teacher can feel up the kid. Seriously.

Are you saying you'd rather trade the guaranteed trauma of being handcuffed to avoid the potential trauma of inappropriate touching? Hey, if circumstances are so out of control that a kindergartener is in handcuffs, the inevitability of throwin down in court was established some time ago. Just gonna be different charges.

[lookout123]

BigV - as a parent - if my child is throwing an uncontrollable fit in school like this, they would rather deal with the cops than me. but the problem is that achild who behaves like this probably doesn't have a proper framework of discipline at home.

but as a parent, if my child does acts out that terribly that a teacher, a principal, and a cop see fit to handcuff - then so be it. i am not the suing type if they chose to restrain him themselves (within reason), but i know that there are many out there just looking for an excuse to sue so i wouldn't blame them. i know that, as a parent, if my child was one of the other children sitting in their seats, annoyed, disturbed, and probably afraid of the little freakshow kid, i would be seriously pissed if they HADN"T used whatever means necessary to get that little brat out of the room.

keep in mind that we aren't talking about a teacher walking up to a student who is quietly drawing and thinking "hmmm, i wonder what they would look like in handcuffs?"
the child went berserk. the teacher responded - ineffectively - but to the extent of their abilities at the time.

as a teacher? i would hope that i would have been able to diffuse the situation before i got that far, but i would not pick up that child and hug them and try to soothe them when they are in that condition unless i knew exactly how the parents would view that - because one little brat is not worth my time, money, or energy in court.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I honestly hadn't thought of this approach, and it looks good on the surface. But what happens when a parent objects? How long to hold a child, and at what distance? How could the video have shown what was being whispered in the ear? Where's the line between good touching and bad touching if you are restraining a child? Don't give me the logical answer, give me the lawyer's answer.

Look, I can't speak for other parents. Duh. As a parent of MY kids, for myself, I'll say this.

The video won't reveal what's being whispered in the kid's ear. So I'll ask. I'll ask the teacher and my kid. I'll combine that infomation with everything else I learn about the situation and see if anything stands out.

The line between good touching and bad touching is approximately what your good sense tells you it is. A ballpark estimate? Areas covered by a regular bathing suit are the out of bounds areas. And another big clue, have another adult present. Makes everyone a little more comfortable. Shit, have more kids present if it's appropriate. For example, if a kid's freaking out because he's being teased because he had an accident in his pants, then maybe it's adults only, no additional kids. I'm saying, be open. I mean if the video's rolling, then what will you try to get away with that you can't defend in court.

Ok, you just asked for the laywer's answer... don't know. not a lawyer. What I know of lawyers is that they have a duty to their clients. And the client is parents and kids in this case. Soooo... back to me.

If I find out that it was bad touching, and it was a crime of opportunity, occasioned by my kid's tantrum--he's goin down. ALL inappropriate touching is verboten. But damn. If it's not inappropriate touching, then it's not. The end.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

This is a litigious society, and that teacher was hobbled by it. She can't lose her job over one tantrum. Calling the cops for a 5 year old is silly, but in the heat of the moment, terrified of angry parents and school boards, the teacher did what she thought was best.

Litigious society. Fuckin fight the power! Don't sue someone today.

Gonna lose my job. Hell, you were looking for a job when you found this one, weren't you? Maybe this isn't your field.

Terrified of parents and school boards? Time to renew that application down at Starbucks, baby.

Be a force for good. Imagine that you're not the only one, and treat others accordingly. Admit your mistakes, and learn from them. Acknowledge that others do exactly the same thing. Do your best. Communicate what you're trying to accomplish to the kids, the parents, the other staff. Review your own goals and motivations for this kind of work. Be aware that this shit happens and how will you improve next time. Don't give up.

[warch]

From the point of view of a young teacher who has faced down an emotionally disturbed, out of control 6 year old in an inclusive classroom...and felt totally powerless, and unable to cope, even after the restraint training workshops...I see nothing wrong with this response. The kid needed to restrained for her own safety and the rest of the school's kids. She need to be calmed and removed. I applaud the school for calling for help. No one wants the kid hurt. Or any of the other kids. There are some mentally ill kids out there that are not simply "undisciplined". I dont know, but I'm guessing she's been scarred by far worse than police restraints.

I will simply add that all those that assume what a easy gig managing a class of 20-28 average kindergarteners would be, never have.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by warch

From the point of view of a young teacher who has faced down an emotionally disturbed, out of control 6 year old in an inclusive classroom...and felt totally powerless, and unable to cope, even after the restraint training workshops...I see nothing wrong with this response. The kid needed to restrained for her own safety and the rest of the school's kids. She need to be calmed and removed. I applaud the school for calling for help. No one wants the kid hurt. Or any of the other kids. There are some mentally ill kids out there that are not simply "undisciplined". I dont know, but I'm guessing she's been scarred by far worse than police restraints.

Needed to be calmed down, agreed. Needed to be removed, also agreed. Needed to be restrained, sure. The teacher's needed help, obviously. And the cops come when you call, ok.

But I have a higher standard for the police. I expect them to be able to use the MINIMUM force required to protect and to serve. From what I saw, their actions exceeded this standard, and I expect they'll answer for it.

UT joked early on that at least they didn't tazer her. Or tear gas her. Or shoot her. Why not? Obviously because that level of response was not warranted. I submit that even the handcuffing was not warranted. I repeat my admission of the shallowness of my knowledge of police procedures. I can only support this opinion on the strenght of my standing as a citizen and a parent. This kid did not deserve to be cuffed.

Originally Posted by warch

I will simply add that all those that assume what a easy gig managing a class of 20-28 average kindergarteners would be, never have.

I haven't done this myself. Close though. And the closer I get, more kids, younger kids, rowdier settings, power tools, open water, projectiles, the more respect I have for those courageous souls that enter the arena day after day.

[OnyxCougar]

BigV, you are missing a big BIG chunk of the story here, one that MUST be considered before further dialog and discussion can take place:

(1) Is the child special needs.

If the child is special needs, then what kind of special needs is crucial. To Autistics and Asperger's children, (and a variety of syndroms like them) you touch them, you might as well have lit them on fire. It is BAD BAD BAD.

(2) What is the previous history with this child?

I agree with most of your post. I think RESPONSIBLE parents don't have a problem with this, because they are, well, responsible. Like yourself. As a parent, you would obviously rather come to the school and pick your child up or calm your child down rather than see your child handcuffed.

But if you are the kind of parent that won't come pick the child up, or teach the child basic discipline and good behavior, then what else do expect the school to do? We do know that the school called the child's parents and they never came. After 45 minutes, it's police calling time.

BigV, you're looking at this from a respectable, responsible, INVOLVED parent perspective. From that perspective, you're absolutely right on all points.

But you're missing the reality of the situation. The reality is that regardless of Jaieesha's "needs", (special or otherwise), her mother DID NOT SHOW UP when she was advised the school could no longer contain the child. That tells me VOLUMES. What kind of parent won't go get thier kid?? The same kind that isn't teaching good behavior, respect, responsiblity, etc etc.

This is the SAME KIND OF PARENT who will sue the school quick as you can BLINK for restraining her child "improperly".

The same kind of person that sue McDonald's for hot coffee.

It happens. It's not right. It's not fair. But it happens. Teachers CANNOT ignore the legalistic viewpoint because ALL TOO OFTEN it means their job.

I'm sorry you don't like that. I don't like it either. But that doesn't change how things are.

[OnyxCougar]

This case is actually on CNN after the commercial, so tune in to that...

[OnyxCougar]

Big,

I put this in a previous post.

The child is uncontrollable. Do not put the child in the back of the squad car unrestrained. She could hurt herself back there.

If you're going to put her in the car, restrain her first. ALWAYS.