Bush Tells Blacks, 'I'm Here to Ask for Your Vote'

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by lookout123

the next step is for everyone to quit looking for someone to blame for diffifulties in their lives, even when there is valid fault reason to do so, and get on with life. do the best that we can, with what we have, try to improve yourself and help the person to the right and left of you, applaud those you see helping others, ignore those who hinder, help old ladies across the street, smile and little kids(even the dirty ones), be kind to everyone (even those that make your skin crawl), love every day of life for all it is worth, hug and kiss (when appropriate) your family every chance you get, and raise your kids to understand that the ignorant people in the world cannot hold them back unless they succomb to victimhood.

lather, rinse, repeat.

no one can make me fail, except for me.
that is what we should do.

Good point, well made.

[lookout123]

If they stop fighting the race war thne they'll lose it ...again. What they understand, and what I would tend to agree with ...is that the race war hasnt ended,

there's nothing like perpetuating a perceived state of conflict by couching your statements in terms of violence.

dana - you sound like a wonderfully empathetic and sympathetic individual but it is clear that in situations where you can't fit yourself into the victim's role, you will look around to make sure there is someone being victimized.

it has been pointed out by smarter cellarites than myself - if you want to find cases of disparity, you will.

[DanaC]

"dana - you sound like a wonderfully empathetic and sympathetic individual but it is clear that in situations where you can't fit yourself into the victim's role, you will look around to make sure there is someone being victimized. "

No....I just take a political analysis of a political problem. I couch it in terms of battle because there is a battle being fought. There are many battles. There is a long tradition of couching political struggles in terms appropriate to warfare. As long as the inequity still exists within the wider picture thne there is still a battle to be fought by those on the losing end of that equation. It's naturally in the interests of someone who belongs to the more powerful group to work to maintain the status quo because the status quo benefits them. Hence it is usually those belonging to the oppressing group rather thna the oppressed group who claim the oppression is part of the past . Anybody who belongs to the oppressed group knows damn well it is an iniquity of the present day.

[jaguar]

Dana you might want to re-phrase that, you basically just accused every white person on the planet who is not aware of any current discrimination against in this case, blacks, of being part of a vast conspiricy to maintiain their 'superiority' or somesuch rubbish.

Inequality will always exist and as bruce so finely put it, we all cop it one way or another, people give favours to people they know, people they go golfing with, brother's friends not to mention old school tie stuff. There are entire management structures in some companies that you'll be unable to break in to unless you went to a certain school. Suck? Hell yes? Part of life? Certainly. Justify a culture of victimhood? no.

[lookout123]

ok dana -

name 1 thing that a white individual has the right or ability to do that a member of any minority, in america, does not have the right to do. just 1, that is all i'm asking. we have equal access to schools, we have equal access to jobs, we have equal access to housing, etc...

in fact there are pending lawsuits in america because of schools like Univ of Michigan that work on a point system for acceptance. most of the points are for academics, etc. but there is a scale of "extra credit"points you get if you are a member of different minority groups. care to venture a guess as to how many points a white person gets?

jag is right, to a large degree business is about who you know. successful business people surround themselves with people that they know they can count on. this generally means someone they have worked with before, or a direct referral. it's called the good old boy network. it is not racist at all, there are also many qualified white people that miss out on jobs, because of the "who you know" network.
just because a qualified black individual didn't get the job, doesn't mean they were not hired because of skin color.

[DanaC]

My point is that one can either tackle racism as a problem or ignore it. To ignore it is to accept it as an inevitable part of life rather than a problem which can be solved. To ignore it is to maintain the status quo. It is in the interests of those in power to maintain the status quo as it benefits their demographic.

Do I believe that all white people are conspiring to keep the black man down? of course not, but it is clearly a reality of life which makes itself felt in the black experience in a way it does not make itself felt in the white. Is life fair for white people? No it's fair for nobody, some people get many opportunities some get few and that cuts across the boards....However the earnings disparity between the majority of black people in America and the majority of white people in America is extreme and in fact has not shifted terribly much since the days of slavery. Black people are free and they have more rights and opportunities thna they once had in America but the distance between their earnings and the majority of whites has not shrunk particularly in the past 2oo years. In order to redress the balance affirmative action has in some cases been used, but since affirmative action does it's job by making things unfair for some white people it has recieved an awful lot of bad press......to shift the balance so that is less in favour of whites means acting unfairly towards whites by placing artificial barriers in their way. This is not considered acceptable by most despite the fact it would make things more fair whne viewed as a whole. Most people who are not part of the groups most likely to face discrimination dont want the world made any more unfair towards themselves regardless of how much more fair that would be for those who are currently discriminated against.


Lookout it isnt a case of rights. In law black and white are equal.....but in reality the opportunities are fewerr for black than white and the wages are lower. Unless you are suggesting that the reason black people are so disproportionately living bneath the poverty line and that whites are disproportionately likely to succeed in business and academia is due to black people just being less capable or ambitious.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by DanaC

it would make things more fair whne viewed as a whole.

How so?

Why is it fair to make it easier for for a group, when taken as a whole, that is less qualified, when taken as a whole, for for most forms of skilled positions, when taken as a whole?

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

However the earnings disparity between the majority of black people in America and the majority of white people in America is extreme and in fact has not shifted terribly much since the days of slavery. Black people are free and they have more rights and opportunities thna they once had in America but the distance between their earnings and the majority of whites has not shrunk particularly in the past 2oo years.

numbers? show me proof that blacks make, in relation to whites, earn no more now than they did 200 years ago.

and drop this "they have more rights and opportunities thna they one had..." BS. they have EVERY right and opportunity that i have.

handicaps are for golf not life. it is inexcuseable in modern life to skew the starting point of anything in the favor of any particular group, no matter what happened in the past. affirmative action while a good idea on paper, cannot be put into action in a proper manner - because it does not treat people as equal. it says to the minority "you couldn't do this on your own so we'll give you a little shove" if that isn't inherently racist, i don't know what is.

[jaguar]

To ignore it is to accept it as an inevitable part of life rather than a problem which can be solved. To ignore it is to maintain the status quo. It is in the interests of those in power to maintain the status quo as it benefits their demographic.

Bias is part of humanity, you're never going to eliminate it. If the majority of executives were black women I'll put $50 that says they would elect a disproportionate number of blacks and women to similar posts, why? Not because they are racism or sexist but becuase they are more likely to be close friends and associates of blacks and women. Bruce's westinghouse example goes in this direction, but that does sound like straight out racism that jobs for the boys.

disproportionately likely to succeed in business and academia is due to black people just being less capable or ambitious.

How about we look at the socioeconomics of that a little further. Poverty breeds poverty, outside the more racist areas of the US I'm willing to be a white guy from an impoverished background who goes though a shitty school system in an inner city slum is just as likely to be a failure as a black guy who does the same. Visa versa for middle class. The fact that more blacks are below the poverty is a social artifact of another era, there isn't too much you can do about it that doesn't apply to all races.

Dana 200 years ago blacks were slaves, I don't think they are today, wage equality isn't there yet but it isn't quite that bad.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Lookout it isnt a case of rights. In law black and white are equal.....but in reality the opportunities are fewerr for black than white and the wages are lower. Unless you are suggesting that the reason black people are so disproportionately living bneath the poverty line and that whites are disproportionately likely to succeed in business and academia is due to black people just being less capable or ambitious.

actually i don't feel they are less capable or ambitious, but those who support affirmative action obviously do.

again - what opportunities do blacks not have access to?

the difference in thought here is pretty obvious - you think that equality means we all have similar job success, income, educational achievements, etc. i say that those are results dependent on the individuals level of dedication - something that cannot be quantitatively measured. in my view equality means having the same ACCESS to opportunities schools, jobs, etc... what you do with it and how you perform and the decisions you make in regards to these opportunities all fall on the individual, not society.

[jaguar]

again - what opportunities do blacks not have access to?

Or to word it slightly differently, what do blacks not have access to that all whites have access to. If my parents were alumini of an Ivy League uni I'd have an easier path in.

[lookout123]

you know that is a good point. i just assumed we were all working from the same basis, but we obviously aren't.

dana and many like here don't see that even though i (and many others) scored high enough to meet their standards it would be a cold day in hell before i ever got into an ivy league school. that isn't racist, classist, or any other ist. life is about meeting people and networking. my dad got his job in the factory 30-odd years ago when they weren't hiring because he played poker with one of the HR guys. each of my successive jobs i have worked with or for someone that i sold something to in my last career. people remember those that they have had a positive experience with and move them to the top of the list. as long as the person hired is qualified, there is nothing wrong with that.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by lookout123

actually i don't feel they are less capable or ambitious, but those who support affirmative action obviously do.

No, those who support affirmative action feel that there are still many people in positions of power who feel that way, who have to be given a nudge to overcome their prejudices.

[jaguar]

For the record I'll add my own examples - though family name and resulting contacts I've had access to information that has made me a lot of money and opened many doors though no action or inaction of my own. I understand this and do my best to help out others who may not have the same luck (it is luck) but I certainly don't apologise for it.

[wolf]

[double]Jag ... for the purpose of any discussion of race or racism, as a white male you start with a lack of credibility from the standpoint of those whose job/avocation/life mission it is to find, point out, and punish racism.[/standard]

See, that's what I have a problem with. And no amount of arguing is going to change the viewpoint of those whose firm belief (despite evidence pro or con) it is that thus and such does or does not exist. It's pretty much the same stalement you come to in existence of god(s) discussions.

Racism is the evangelism of color.