The right way to stop a bully - Page 6

Aliantha · 03-18-2011, 09:32 PM

It occurs to me as I watch and listen to and participate in discussions about this incident both online and irl, that while the footage might be brutal and quite hard for some to watch, it has opened up a social discourse about the true issues some kids are facing every day.

It might be unpleasant and it might be offensive even, but if we continue to view this issue as something periferal and 'not real' kids will still be bullied.

Whether you agree with any of the choices and decisions and actions of any of the stakeholders in this incident, we all must surely be aware that it's a good thing that the issue has been brought out into the open for all of us to not only address the rights and wrongs of the stakeholders, but also to consider what we personally should be doing to safeguard our children - either as victims or bullies - from similar outcomes.

footfootfoot · 03-20-2011, 04:48 PM

snap

infinite monkey · 03-21-2011, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

snap

double snap

Clodfobble · 03-21-2011, 12:49 PM

Another way to look at it is this: if the video had instead shown the little kid punching the victim, and then a hall monitor marches up, grabs the bully by the scruff of the neck, and paddles him soundly but calmly before sending him to detention, most people's reaction would be different. We might nod in satisfaction, or even smirk, but no one would be particularly cheering. Because we're not celebrating the fact that the bully was injured, or even humiliated--we're celebrating the victim overcoming his fear, and becoming a more confident person. It's joy for the victim, not vengefulness against the bully.

Another important thing to note is that if (in some magical fairy tale land) this school actually were to enact corporal punishment, it still wouldn't be as effective as this one small display you see in the video. The bully very well might redouble his torture of the victim after being paddled by a hall monitor, because that's how power hierarchies work: you can't retaliate against the power above you, so you take it out on those below you. It's the reason why kids who are beaten at home often become bullies in the first place. The lesson that the bully is not above this kid at school, and that any other supposedly weak kid might punch back at any given time, you never know--that's a far stronger lesson than "the hall monitor might punish me... so I'd better not get caught."

jimhelm · 03-21-2011, 12:50 PM

after someone punched you in the face twice, you would let him hit you a third time? really?

monster · 03-21-2011, 01:05 PM

No, I wouldn't.

Spexx you are avoiding the issue. What would you see instead? What do you think the big kid should have done? He ignored it the first time. And the second. It didn't get him very far, did it?

And yes, there is a difference. This victim's behaviour is instant retaliation/response, no premeditation. If he had waited until the next day to attack the little squirt, that would be an entirely different scenario. Like McVeigh and Bin Laden.

Clodfobble · 03-21-2011, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimhelm

after someone punched you in the face twice, you would let him hit you a third time? really?

I know you're talking to Spexx, but to answer for myself... I certainly wouldn't now. But I did as a kid. A third time and many more after that. And nothing ever improved, even after the school intervened on behalf of me and several other students she was going after. I wish to God someone had just taken me aside and said, "Punch her in the face. Just one time, as hard as you can, square in the middle. You will get in a little bit of trouble, and you will have to accept that, but it will make her stop, and you know that's more important than any punishment the school will hand out to you." And I have every intention of saying something similar to my children when the time comes.

footfootfoot · 03-21-2011, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I know you're talking to Spexx, but to answer for myself... I certainly wouldn't now. But I did as a kid. A third time and many more after that. And nothing ever improved, even after the school intervened on behalf of me and several other students she was going after. I wish to God someone had just taken me aside and said, "Punch her in the face. Just one time, as hard as you can, square in the middle. You will get in a little bit of trouble, and you will have to accept that, but it will make her stop, and you know that's more important than any punishment the school will hand out to you." And I have every intention of saying something similar to my children when the time comes.

This is why when mrs. foot tells the kids "we don't hit" I take them aside and say "yes we do, and here's how to throw a punch and here's where to hit them. but we don't usually hit first."

piercehawkeye45 · 03-21-2011, 02:34 PM

MLK and Gandhi were able to use non-violent protests to bring social change upon their society but these protest movements are only successful under certain conditions. If a non-violent movement against Hitler started in the late 1930's (or any brutal dictator for that matter) I really doubt they would have have enjoyed the same amount of success.

Dealing with bullies works in a similar fashion. Using non-violent methods will work under certain conditions but will fail in others. If talking to teachers and parents have not stopped the bullying, sometimes a fight in the next best option.

Spexxvet · 03-21-2011, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Dealing with bullies works in a similar fashion. Using non-violent methods will work under certain conditions but will fail in others. If talking to teachers and parents have not stopped the bullying, sometimes a fight in the next best option.

I agree. We don't know what steps were taken before this clip.

Clodfobble · 03-21-2011, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I agree. We don't know what steps were taken before this clip.

Then I imagine you're actually in agreement with most people here. Earlier you said "conflicts should be resolved without violence" and "mature adults don't condone that behavior," neither of which implies room for a last-resort option of fighting.

Spexxvet · 03-22-2011, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Then I imagine you're actually in agreement with most people here. .

The sense that I got from most people posting in this thread is that they celebrate and endorse children being violent. I am not in agreement with those people.

jimhelm · 03-21-2011, 09:09 PM

It's really hard to say what you might do in that kid's position. The adrenaline that hits you might well change your opinion, spexx. Intellectually, it's correct and easy to say that violence is never the answer. And then someone hits you in the mouth.

It's a unique scenario. He's clearly much larger than his tormentor, and stronger. You usually don't see this played out this way. Also, the way the smaller kid was behaving made me think that he had been doing this for a while. I don't think it was the first time he had picked on the larger kid. He had become bold, it would seem. And the big kid finally had enough.

I had a smaller kid (my best childhood friend) hit me in the face once. He got scared and ran away as soon as he did it, and stayed out of reach long enough to let me cool down and apologize over and over. I never hit him back. Had he stood there and tried to give me 3, I am pretty certain I would have acted similarly to the way that this kid did.... actually, I started toward Dan after the first shot....

classicman · 03-21-2011, 09:32 PM

Australian School 'Bully' -- I'm Not Sorry!

I keep coming back to the same questions ... Why was this on video?
Did anyone ask the person who shot it?
It seemed premeditated to me.

skysidhe · 03-21-2011, 10:07 PM

Sometime's I think he just says something weird to get a reaction. Fishing. That's my take on it. For whatever reason, there is a lack of subtly to be sure.

03-18-2011, 09:32 PM	#1
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	It occurs to me as I watch and listen to and participate in discussions about this incident both online and irl, that while the footage might be brutal and quite hard for some to watch, it has opened up a social discourse about the true issues some kids are facing every day. It might be unpleasant and it might be offensive even, but if we continue to view this issue as something periferal and 'not real' kids will still be bullied. Whether you agree with any of the choices and decisions and actions of any of the stakeholders in this incident, we all must surely be aware that it's a good thing that the issue has been brought out into the open for all of us to not only address the rights and wrongs of the stakeholders, but also to consider what we personally should be doing to safeguard our children - either as victims or bullies - from similar outcomes. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

03-20-2011, 04:48 PM	#2
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	snap __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

03-21-2011, 12:49 PM	#4
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Another way to look at it is this: if the video had instead shown the little kid punching the victim, and then a hall monitor marches up, grabs the bully by the scruff of the neck, and paddles him soundly but calmly before sending him to detention, most people's reaction would be different. We might nod in satisfaction, or even smirk, but no one would be particularly cheering. Because we're not celebrating the fact that the bully was injured, or even humiliated--we're celebrating the victim overcoming his fear, and becoming a more confident person. It's joy for the victim, not vengefulness against the bully. Another important thing to note is that if (in some magical fairy tale land) this school actually were to enact corporal punishment, it still wouldn't be as effective as this one small display you see in the video. The bully very well might redouble his torture of the victim after being paddled by a hall monitor, because that's how power hierarchies work: you can't retaliate against the power above you, so you take it out on those below you. It's the reason why kids who are beaten at home often become bullies in the first place. The lesson that the bully is not above this kid at school, and that any other supposedly weak kid might punch back at any given time, you never know--that's a far stronger lesson than "the hall monitor might punish me... so I'd better not get caught." __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal

03-21-2011, 12:50 PM	#5
jimhelm a beautiful fool Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 39.939705 Posts: 4,504	after someone punched you in the face twice, you would let him hit you a third time? really? __________________ There's a Shadow just behind me. Shrouding every step I take. Making every promise empty, pointing every finger at me. _tool

03-21-2011, 01:05 PM	#6
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	No, I wouldn't. Spexx you are avoiding the issue. What would you see instead? What do you think the big kid should have done? He ignored it the first time. And the second. It didn't get him very far, did it? And yes, there is a difference. This victim's behaviour is instant retaliation/response, no premeditation. If he had waited until the next day to attack the little squirt, that would be an entirely different scenario. Like McVeigh and Bin Laden. __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

03-21-2011, 02:34 PM	#9
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	MLK and Gandhi were able to use non-violent protests to bring social change upon their society but these protest movements are only successful under certain conditions. If a non-violent movement against Hitler started in the late 1930's (or any brutal dictator for that matter) I really doubt they would have have enjoyed the same amount of success. Dealing with bullies works in a similar fashion. Using non-violent methods will work under certain conditions but will fail in others. If talking to teachers and parents have not stopped the bullying, sometimes a fight in the next best option. __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

03-21-2011, 09:09 PM	#13
jimhelm a beautiful fool Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 39.939705 Posts: 4,504	It's really hard to say what you might do in that kid's position. The adrenaline that hits you might well change your opinion, spexx. Intellectually, it's correct and easy to say that violence is never the answer. And then someone hits you in the mouth. It's a unique scenario. He's clearly much larger than his tormentor, and stronger. You usually don't see this played out this way. Also, the way the smaller kid was behaving made me think that he had been doing this for a while. I don't think it was the first time he had picked on the larger kid. He had become bold, it would seem. And the big kid finally had enough. I had a smaller kid (my best childhood friend) hit me in the face once. He got scared and ran away as soon as he did it, and stayed out of reach long enough to let me cool down and apologize over and over. I never hit him back. Had he stood there and tried to give me 3, I am pretty certain I would have acted similarly to the way that this kid did.... actually, I started toward Dan after the first shot.... __________________ There's a Shadow just behind me. Shrouding every step I take. Making every promise empty, pointing every finger at me. _tool

03-21-2011, 09:32 PM	#14
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Australian School 'Bully' -- I'm Not Sorry! I keep coming back to the same questions ... Why was this on video? Did anyone ask the person who shot it? It seemed premeditated to me. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

03-21-2011, 10:07 PM	#15
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	Sometime's I think he just says something weird to get a reaction. Fishing. That's my take on it. For whatever reason, there is a lack of subtly to be sure.

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