Do You Own a Gun?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

What if they just want to steal your gum? Hubba Bubba?

My guess is I could find a level of force less than deadly force that would make them give up the gum, or I could use the force of my servants (government) to handle it for me.

[Undertoad]

How are we born with rights? Did a little certificate pop out with your little head?

Originally Posted by Thom Jefferson

We hold these truths to be self-evident,

that all men are created equal,

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,...

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Thom Jefferson
We hold these truths to be self-evident,

that all men are created equal,

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,...

Tom, you're entitled to your own opinion. The guy down the block feels differently, though. I like the "pursuit of happiness" concept - run with that a little.

[Radar]

The basis of all the laws in America is the recognition (not the creation) that we are born with unalienable rights. Our rights don't come from "society" or from "government" and most certainly aren't a concept or an opinion. They are a reality and are tangible.

Just as gravity existed before Newton "discovered" it, so did our rights before men talked about them or recognized them.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Radar

The basis of all the laws in America is the recognition (not the creation) that we are born with unalienable rights. Our rights don't come from "society" or from "government" and most certainly aren't a concept or an opinion. They are a reality and are tangible.

Just as gravity existed before Newton "discovered" it, so did our rights before men talked about them or recognized them.

"among these are..."

What, specifically, are these rights? If they are tangible, they can be listed, right? Whether you want to say "hold these truths to be self-evident" or "recognition", this is still denotes subjectivity - it is an opinion, since other people do not have the same view.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

"among these are..."

What, specifically, are these rights? If they are tangible, they can be listed, right? Whether you want to say "hold these truths to be self-evident" or "recognition", this is still denotes subjectivity - it is an opinion, since other people do not have the same view.

There are too many to list. Among them are chewing bubblegum, riding a pogo stick, and posting ridiculous claims that we aren't born with rights on websites.

The list is much shorter to say what are rights are not than what they are. Our rights aren't to be defined or limited by governments.

In short, we have the right to do ANYTHING we want as long as our actions don't physically harm or endanger the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others. In other words, the only limitations on our rights are the equal rights of others.

I don't know what country you are from, but here in America, the fact that we have human rights is axiomatic. It's a given. It is recognized not only in America, but throughout the vast majority of the world.

All governments violate human rights to some degree including our own on an ever increasing basis, but nearly all of them also recognize the fact that humans are born with rights.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Radar, you are doing a fine job in this thread handling some pretty mystifying questions and addressing some baffling misconceptions.

I agree. While I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, you've presented rational points of view without any value judgements or UG/merc-type slur...

Originally Posted by Radar

There are too many to list. Among them are chewing bubblegum, riding a pogo stick, and posting ridiculous claims that we aren't born with rights on websites.

never mind...
Now why did you have to go there? Like I said, I don't agree with you, but didn't say anything was ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Radar

The list is much shorter to say what are rights are not than what they are. Our rights aren't to be defined or limited by governments.

In short, we have the right to do ANYTHING we want as long as our actions don't physically harm or endanger the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others. In other words, the only limitations on our rights are the equal rights of others.

I don't know what country you are from, but here in America, the fact that we have human rights is axiomatic. It's a given. It is recognized not only in America, but throughout the vast majority of the world.

All governments violate human rights to some degree including our own on an ever increasing basis, but nearly all of them also recognize the fact that humans are born with rights.

I'm from The USA. Born and bred. Some of us believe in human rights - plenty of Americans don't.

I don't think rights "exist" as though they would be there even if no humans existed - they are not stand-alone. They are societal conventions, agreed upon by civilizations. The deer that wakes up doesn't think about what it is allowed to do any more than the wolf does. But by your definition, the wolf infringes on the rights of the deer when it eats the deer. If these rights were "pre-existing", they would supercede "might makes right" wouldn't they?

Where do laws come into your philosophy? If someone tries to steal your car, you feel entitled to kill the person. What about due process? The legal system? Is each person their own judge, jury, and executioner, interpreting their own set of "unwritten laws"? This would make for an anxiety-filled society, where no one knows exactly how to behave, because one person's interpretation of "unwritten laws" will be different than another person's, and breaking those "unwritten laws" could get you killed.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I agree. While I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, you've presented rational points of view without any value judgements or UG/merc-type slur...



never mind...
Now why did you have to go there? Like I said, I don't agree with you, but didn't say anything was ridiculous.



I'm from The USA. Born and bred. Some of us believe in human rights - plenty of Americans don't.

I don't think rights "exist" as though they would be there even if no humans existed - they are not stand-alone. They are societal conventions, agreed upon by civilizations. The deer that wakes up doesn't think about what it is allowed to do any more than the wolf does. But by your definition, the wolf infringes on the rights of the deer when it eats the deer. If these rights were "pre-existing", they would supercede "might makes right" wouldn't they?

Where do laws come into your philosophy? If someone tries to steal your car, you feel entitled to kill the person. What about due process? The legal system? Is each person their own judge, jury, and executioner, interpreting their own set of "unwritten laws"? This would make for an anxiety-filled society, where no one knows exactly how to behave, because one person's interpretation of "unwritten laws" will be different than another person's, and breaking those "unwritten laws" could get you killed.

Actually no. There are no people in America that don't believe in rights, and that includes you. If I tried to kill you, you'd say that you have the right to live. Without rights, you would have no right to complain if I did try to kill you anymore than you would complain about another natural occurance like the rain.

You complain about an "anxiety-filled society" without written laws, but the truth is without rights we'd have no laws and I could enslave you, rape you, rob you, and murder you without fear of retaliation because you have no right to your life, your person, or your possessions. Most would have less anxiety if they knew the only law was that no person could violate the person, property, or rights of others than to live in the "society" where rights aren't recognized that you've described.

Society has no rights. Only individuals do, and they got these rights the moment they were born. Rights don't come from societal conventions or agreements. Rights can't be bought, sold, traded, taken, or given away.

Amendment 1 (1st for a reason)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, an agreement signed between the United States and the Muslim region of North Africa in 1797 after negotiations concluded by George Washington (the document, which was approved by the Senate in accordance with Constitutional law, and then signed by John Adams), it states flatly, "The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." signed by John Adams
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" John Adams

I have a private family range and we have melons on the ranch.

[wolf]

You're just a touch far from Philadelphia, and the regulations for travelling with firearms by air are complex to the point that folks from the airlines don't typically know or follow them properly, from what I've heard from other's personal experience.

Originally Posted by wolf

You're just a touch far from Philadelphia, and the regulations for travelling with firearms by air are complex to the point that folks from the airlines don't typically know or follow them properly, from what I've heard from other's personal experience.

I just tell em', hand it to them packaged properly, pick it up at my location. Never had an issue.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I just tell em', hand it to them packaged properly, pick it up at my location. Never had an issue.

When was the last time you flew a commercial airline with a firearm?

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

When was the last time you flew a commercial airline with a firearm?

Been quite a while.

[Beestie]

Radar, you are doing a fine job in this thread handling some pretty mystifying questions and addressing some baffling misconceptions.