George "Macacawitz" Allen on Guns

[DanaC]

As far as the Chris Rock bit... I load my own rounds.

Now I'm confused.

My side-arm saved my life several times. You should speak of things you know about.

I did speak of things things I know about ie. History. I did however ask some questions about things I don't know about. Have I, in this thread, condemned the use of firearms, or have I asked questions?

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Sorry, but the right answers are always the same and thus boring. If you want a constantly changing array of excuses you'll have to listen to the prohibitionist arguments.

The arguments are always the same and thus boring. That doesn't make them right. Only right in your perception, and that of your cronies.

Did I misquote you?
Those were statements, equating the need for firearms with the middle ages... a very incorrect statement, illustrated by my facts.
People in rural areas, as well as non-military or police security personnel, use them as tools every day. I have been one of these people more than once in my life.

We cannot unmake guns... it is a naive argument and a waste of time.
Americans are not going to give their guns away, to ask is to remove the government that does so... that too is a naive argument and a waste of time.

[DanaC]

Those were statements, equating the need for firearms with the middle ages... a very incorrect statement,

Sorry, you've misunderstood, or I have put my point across badly. The middle-ages thing was in response to someone else basically saying that militia was not something that a Brit would have any understanding of. I was merely making the point that we (Brits) have a much longer history of having a militia than in not having armed citizenry.

The point is still incorrect.
Our founding fathers also believed that an armed militia was required in case the government got too big for their britches.
The people should never fear their government, the government should always fear the people was a basic principal of our founding fathers.

Loading my own rounds means I load my own brass... I do not need to buy commercial rounds for my weapons if I do not want to. I can reload them myself, and do for my rifles.

"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." ~George Mason~

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." —Jeff Snyder

TJ on Disarming Public
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for
the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage
than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater
confidence than an armed man."
-Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria


“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.”
-- Samuel Adams, Debates & Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (February 6, 1788).


“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.”
-- Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 45 (Virginia Convention, June 5, 1788).


“God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.”
-- Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith on Nov. 13, 1787. The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955).


“I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.”
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426, June 16, 1788

“If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person
were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified
in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would
be justified in silencing mankind.”- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard
even his enemy from opposition: for if he violates this duty he
establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. ”- Thomas Paine,
Dissertation On First Principles Of Government

“The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.” - Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

[DanaC]

How is the point still incorrect?

I refer you to my earlier point:

Okay. Serious question:

I understand the logic of armed citizenry. I even agree, to a certain extent with the wisdom of that concept. After all, a citizenry who aren't armed are potentially at the mercy of powerful armed governments. What I don't understand is the desire to walk around armed. Is life so dangerous that people feel the need to carry weaponry wherever they go? Who/what does the gun protect them from? How likely is it that someone will need to use their gun?

I have already agreed that, in principle, the idea of an armed citizenry is a potentially good thing, because otherwise it is at risk from a powerful and armed government.....in what way have I disagreed with you?

The point I made was in response to someone, as I have already said, who suggested that somehow being British meant one didn't have a cultural understanding of militia.

I guess I misunderstood your point about the militia.

[DanaC]

Okay

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Bad math there. That gives a death rate of 720 per 100000 per year. Firearm death rate will be less, as a lot of it is done by bombs, but that wasn't provided in your numbers.

Hey, don't look at me, I just c/ped it...

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

The arguments are always the same and thus boring. That doesn't make them right. Only right in your perception, and that of your cronies.

Aliantha, right is no respecter of opinion.

And the dubiously opinionated are no respecters of right.

Bloodthirstiness becomes no one, but even minimal self-respect would allow self defense, and not prohibit this or that tool to get it, particularly with any reference to the level of violence exerted in aid of a wrongful aggression. That leads to nothing but oppression by the savage, who are exactly the sort you particularly don't want to be oppressed by.

The psychological problems of the "ragers against self defense" have been fairly thoroughly explored, and the picture that emerges isn't pretty, as you can read in other gun threads.

[Aliantha]

Right, so now you're saying anyone who doesn't agree with your point of view has psychological problems? lol

You're on a roll today UG.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Hey, don't look at me, I just c/ped it...

From Rep. Steve King (R-IA) and he was using old numbers and bad math, even though DC is bad.

I'm still trying to figure out how more funding will make me safer in a park...


UG, or anyone else, how much kick do the Glock Slimline .45s have?
I want a .45 that will not break my wrist. I need the smaller handle, like on the Glock 6, because I want to get a good grip in it. I am only wanting a .45 and have to have a Glock. It is what I used on the ranch and just won't use anything else (wind, rain, sand, pond, pig-shit... still fires). Greatest handgun of all time. Always used the .45 for stopping power and the fact I could get rounds at Wal-Mart (hey, we worked all the time in the middle of nowhere). I have a revolver now, but want to go back to a pistol, which I turned back in when I left the ranch and the one I used when in security. I have never owned one of my own, just issued through work.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

I'd bet it's a little bouncier on firing if your Slimline is a small-magazine type. Anything as big as the 17 or the 20-odds will have that much more bullet mass to soak up the acceleration, with the heavier weight of a magazine of .40 or .45 bullets being noticeable. You might notice the slide cycles faster -- I've noticed that about some 9mms versus my .45 1911 types. Everything would get done a hair quicker.

You can get pistol competition things like PAST gloves to help with recoil owie during practice sessions. While you wouldn't lumber yourself with these during carry-use, they'd make for comfort while you get your marksmanship refined to whatever degree you want to afford. Then a little practice barehanded, as you carry, to iron out any differences of pointing or feel, and you're all kinds of ready.

Glock 36 -- 6 rd magazine, 765 grams fully loaded, over a pound and a half. The lighter slide means less perceived recoil than the bigger 1911 type pistols, part of whose kick is really the feel of a fairly massive slide going back and forth.

Aliantha, I'll assume from your smiley that you're being completely facetious. However, seriously now, you've reversed cause and effect: when I hoist the banner of self defense, guess who or what crawls out of the woodwork? We have seen the hoplophobic neurosis on extensive display from Spexxvet. The people who are sane, and knowledgeable, on self defense do not fight me.

[Aliantha]

Well there was some truth to my comment UG. If you have a fault, it's being a bit obnoxious with some of your comments.

As to why I don't think people need to carry guns, well, I've stated my opinion on the matter endlessly and so, at this point, since I live in a country where hand guns are illegal and the majority of the population feel this is a good thing, I'll just be thankful I live in a country where I don't have to fight this battle.