tired of drama - Page 6

mrnoodle · 08-30-2006, 02:28 PM

The moral component comes into play the first time you use/screw/steal. Naturally, you always have a choice, but if you never take the first step down the wrong road, you don't have to worry about the 1,000th step.

Once you've done it, though, a new set of rules comes into play. I'm a christian, so in my world, we're talking about sin, grace, repentance, stuff like that. To be "set free" from sin doesn't mean that you don't have the urge to do it anymore -- to the contrary, it becomes almost an obsession, at least until you finally accept the good things you're meant for, and turn away from the bad (not an instantaneous happening -- see below). If the thing you're doing has a physically addictive quality, you compound the problem.

Use heroin as an example. The first time someone uses heroin, they know it's a bad idea. They may think it's not "sinful" in their worldview. But it is at the very least dangerous and potentially earth-shattering to themselves and those around them. Knowing that and still choosing to use is the sin -- you put your own desires above everyone else's and did something you know was wrong. It doesn't matter why.

But after awhile, you repent. You turn your back on heroin and decide to live a positive life from this moment on. You swear before all that you believe is holy that you'll never do it again. Problem solved, right? I mean, you've made the correct moral decision.

Nope, your problem is just beginning. First of all, you sold yourself into slavery. You made a deal with the devil that in exchange for a high, you would take the consequences of that choice. The price of breaking free appears to be higher than the price of staying a slave. You aren't thinking of long term consequences anymore, you're thinking of how to get rid of the pain you're feeling right now. If you please your master, you won't get beat.

Second, you're battling yourself. The good nature inside of you (which I believe is God-given, and not our own will) has atrophied for so long that it only makes occasional, if well-meaning, appearances. You've allowed your self-destructiveness to reign for so long that it's the default mode. "Doing the right thing" is as genuinely impossible as learning a foreign language overnight.

So, is every instance of buying a bag, putting something in the spoon, heating it, injecting it, and passing out a separate act of defiance, immorality, or sin? Not to me. I think it's a state of being that has to be changed. First, you have to detox. That's the easy part.

But then, you have to learn that foreign language. You have to reacquaint yourself with what is good a little at a time, and start to work those atrophied muscles. Not much at first -- even getting the synapses to fire is a good start.

Here's where people's paths diverge. My faith teaches that you are always a slave -- if not to one master, than to another. And you can't serve both. Serving your own "fleshly" desires means you can't serve good, because you don't automatically want to do good -- it has to be a trained response. (This is a debate for the religion thread at this point, but if you doubt me, watch a 2-year old who gets his/her will thwarted for the first time, or examine that first, fleeting thought in your head when someone cuts you off in traffic -- that's the default, I think).

The secular answer is therapy, self-awareness, and things like that. I don't personally go in for that kind of thing, so I can't really speak to it. But either path you choose, you have to do the same thing: Find something positive to fill the void left by the bad behavior and become the new instinct.

I have a feeling I've talked in circles or lost my original point somewhere (chalk another post up to the long-term effects of weed?)

Trilby · 08-30-2006, 02:38 PM

Well, I'm not a Christian...as far as AA goes that IS a problem (though they croutch their language otherwise they ARE a Christian organization--don't believe me? Come to a meeting in the heart of Ohio and we shall see who is ridiculed--Higher Power indeed!)

Plus, the whole 13th step process sickens me---i can't take it.

Trilby · 08-30-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The moral component comes into play the first time you use/screw/steal. Naturally, you always have a choice, but if you never take the first step down the wrong road, you don't have to worry about the 1,000th step.

Just like the gay person who never sneaks a kiss. Right. THEY always have fucking choice, too, right?

what a load.

9th Engineer · 08-31-2006, 12:44 AM

Whatever. The bottom line is that WE DON'T KNOW JACK about the genetic components of either addiction or homosexuality, and don't hold your breath because, as much as people might lie to themselves, they don't want to know. It's all completely chock full of political and emotional BULLSHIT. Everyone needs the ability to hold that bit of denial close to themselves at night to lull them to sleep, gay bashers need to feel that homos are just disgusting people making disgusting choices and gays need to feel that it's all out of their control and ingrained into who they are. If we had a definative answer for any of these questions it wouldn't change the minds of those affected one iota. Addiction less than homosexuality perhaps, but still the same idea in there.

Everything will depend on what political party is in power when the data comes in. If it's no genetic connection and we have a liberal, it'll become ghost science. If it's completely depedent on genetics and we have the conservatives? Same story.

Everyone lies - House M.D.

mrnoodle · 08-31-2006, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

Just like the gay person who never sneaks a kiss. Right. THEY always have fucking choice, too, right?

what a load.

Why is it that you've gone from being the picked-upon, why-is-everyone-so-mean-to-me mode that I remember from before, to this caustic, nasty shit? You are always claiming to be able to read between everyone's lines, see their hidden agenda, accuse them of misleading everyone maliciously, read crap into their posts that arent' there. Just chill. This from the ... nevermind.

WTF does any of this have to do with gays again? Like, do they have a choice whether or not they feel gay, or do they have a choice whether or not they let someone put their reproductive organ in their bunghole? I'm gonna guess your oh-so-refined answer is something like, "no"?

I'm talking about addiction. You said it was like gays, I said it was like ... well, addiction.

Meh, I'm not reading these things before bed again.

Trilby · 08-31-2006, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Why is it that you've gone from being the picked-upon, why-is-everyone-so-mean-to-me mode that I remember from before, to this caustic, nasty shit?

It must be this place.

Anyway, it's a personal thing. I get tired of explaining.

Sorry to get your panties in a bundle there, noodle. I didn't realize I was being so nasty and caustic. FWIW I am very, very nervous and worried lately. I feel like I'm going to jump out of my skin. I need a break.

Undertoad · 08-31-2006, 08:50 AM

Wikipedia entry on biology and sexual orientation

Stormieweather · 08-31-2006, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbro

~snip~ One that says he wants to get out of this and start over. I think that is one of the reasons he wants to come down here with me so bad.

I don't know of anyone in jail (or in trouble) that doesn't want to get out of it and many think, with just one more chance, they can start over. The problem is that wanting it and doing the work required to make the changes are two very different things.

If he merely 'wants' to change, it won't be enough. He has to examine the reasons he is addicted with brutal honesty. It will be painful. Then he has to rewrite the scripts that end in getting drunk/high with ones that end in alternative activities. This is the reason groups like AAA work for many people. People who get high often have low self-esteem and unacknowledged demons which drive them to hide in a drug or alcohol induced stupor.

And most of all, he'll have to do it on his own. You can't do it for him, or push him through it, or make him want to not drink.

Oh, and he can't run from it. Moving away won't solve the problem. The reasons for his addictions are inside him and no matter where he goes, they will still be there.

Stormie

xoxoxoBruce · 09-02-2006, 10:34 PM

I wonder if he is an alcoholic?
I've known guys that would get drunk every time they hung with drinkers, yet never drink at home or out with non-drinkers. It can be a social scene, trying to be one of the boys, fitting in and being accepted, sort of thing. For these lucky people it's a matter of changing environment.
Just wondering?

WabUfvot5 · 09-03-2006, 04:10 AM

Alcoholics can sometimes have a lot of triggers. Not all of them can be avoided no matter where you flee.

yesman065 · 09-05-2006, 10:39 AM

After having been a drug user for many years and being married to an alcoholic for 18 (now separated) I have come to believe that I am "one of the lucky few" who can turn it on or off at will. Pot, coke, shrooms, meth and so on. I would do as I pleased when I pleased and then stop at the drop of a hat. This made it unbelievably difficult to comprehend that she couldn't do the same.
Off we went to counselor after counselor (lost track after 6 or 7) then AA meetings both she separately and many many together. At this point I feel very little empathy or sympathy for those who are still using or "trying" to stop. Until it is over and an entirely new pattern of behavior is established, they are still using or going to soon. My life and the lives of my children were ripped apart and destroyed by her and her fuckin drinking and drugging. NO sympathy here for any user - period. Get clean and I might try to cut you some slack. If I had it my way, AA and every other "how do you feel?" group would be eliminated and the money given to the victims of these people. Put their kids in school and get the children some counseling - screw the addict - it their problem and I believe they CHOSE it.
As far as your boyfriend and the "look in his eyes" That look is called desperation! He will say and do ANYTHING to get out of where he is and will screw, steal from, cheat and lie to anyone he can to do it. **Hint hint - his mom probably already knows this and that is the reason for her behavior.** I'm sorry to come down so hard on you, but I lived the life you are headed for firsthand and it TOTALLY SUCKS.
I am what Bri would call a savior - I tried to do everything and anything to help her out of her troubles and realized way too late that it was not only her life she was ruining, but also mine and her kids. I came riding in on my white horse trying to save the "poor damsel in distress" What a joke she just wanted someone to clean up every mess she created and support her habit. I have heard this story a hundred times and didn't realize I was living it til I got out and over my own addiction which I finally realized was. . .HER. My unsolicited advice - run, Bbro run like the freakin wind and never look back!

mrnoodle · 09-05-2006, 11:06 AM

yesman, I think that you're the exception rather than the rule. I agree, there's too much "feeling" going on instead of action. But whatever chemical your brain produces that lets you put down a physically addictive substance without even looking back....damn. You need to bottle that stuff, you'd make a fortune.

My mom is the same as you. She can't even fathom why anyone would want to put anything in their body that makes them that sick. There would be no way to explain the need to her, because her brain doesn't work that way. You two are lucky.

For people on the other end of the spectrum, they can no more stop using than they can hold their breath for 30 minutes. If they try, the pressure just builds and builds until they can't take it anymore. I think there's evidence that it's physiological as much as psychological, but I don't have any idea where to get proof of it.

yesman065 · 09-05-2006, 11:38 AM

Knowing I have "done it all" and still was able to walk away when I chose to so do, makes me the rare exception to the rule. Of that, I am painfully aware - my issue is with those who believe they can and try to save, help or whatever those who are "the rule." I feel badly for these people and want to help them before they lose or waste years of their lives and endure unnecessary pain and damage. Here I go again - tryin to be the savior - see Bri - I can't help it.

Trilby · 09-05-2006, 03:56 PM

You know what is really weird...as addicted I am to everything else (name something: I'm addicted to it) I am not addicted to cigarettes. I can smoke one and then never have another one again. I've been a 'social' smoker and now I don't even do that. WHY would I NOT become addicted to smokes? So. Weird.

9th Engineer · 09-05-2006, 08:23 PM

Druggies can be fun in their own way too you know. I've never seen anything funnier than a guy on both shrooms and speed at the same time. He was running around our quad for at least 45 min before campus security finally caught him. He thought he was being attacked by ninja gnomes or something and kept screaming at them while pretending to be the Master Sergent. He even went so far as to throw a grenade (I can't imagine what he was seeing right then) and then jumped off a height divider into a pile of snow about 25 feet below him, rumor has it he broke 2 ribs. Absolutly hilarious.

08-30-2006, 02:28 PM	#76
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	The moral component comes into play the first time you use/screw/steal. Naturally, you always have a choice, but if you never take the first step down the wrong road, you don't have to worry about the 1,000th step. Once you've done it, though, a new set of rules comes into play. I'm a christian, so in my world, we're talking about sin, grace, repentance, stuff like that. To be "set free" from sin doesn't mean that you don't have the urge to do it anymore -- to the contrary, it becomes almost an obsession, at least until you finally accept the good things you're meant for, and turn away from the bad (not an instantaneous happening -- see below). If the thing you're doing has a physically addictive quality, you compound the problem. Use heroin as an example. The first time someone uses heroin, they know it's a bad idea. They may think it's not "sinful" in their worldview. But it is at the very least dangerous and potentially earth-shattering to themselves and those around them. Knowing that and still choosing to use is the sin -- you put your own desires above everyone else's and did something you know was wrong. It doesn't matter why. But after awhile, you repent. You turn your back on heroin and decide to live a positive life from this moment on. You swear before all that you believe is holy that you'll never do it again. Problem solved, right? I mean, you've made the correct moral decision. Nope, your problem is just beginning. First of all, you sold yourself into slavery. You made a deal with the devil that in exchange for a high, you would take the consequences of that choice. The price of breaking free appears to be higher than the price of staying a slave. You aren't thinking of long term consequences anymore, you're thinking of how to get rid of the pain you're feeling right now. If you please your master, you won't get beat. Second, you're battling yourself. The good nature inside of you (which I believe is God-given, and not our own will) has atrophied for so long that it only makes occasional, if well-meaning, appearances. You've allowed your self-destructiveness to reign for so long that it's the default mode. "Doing the right thing" is as genuinely impossible as learning a foreign language overnight. So, is every instance of buying a bag, putting something in the spoon, heating it, injecting it, and passing out a separate act of defiance, immorality, or sin? Not to me. I think it's a state of being that has to be changed. First, you have to detox. That's the easy part. But then, you have to learn that foreign language. You have to reacquaint yourself with what is good a little at a time, and start to work those atrophied muscles. Not much at first -- even getting the synapses to fire is a good start. Here's where people's paths diverge. My faith teaches that you are always a slave -- if not to one master, than to another. And you can't serve both. Serving your own "fleshly" desires means you can't serve good, because you don't automatically want to do good -- it has to be a trained response. (This is a debate for the religion thread at this point, but if you doubt me, watch a 2-year old who gets his/her will thwarted for the first time, or examine that first, fleeting thought in your head when someone cuts you off in traffic -- that's the default, I think). The secular answer is therapy, self-awareness, and things like that. I don't personally go in for that kind of thing, so I can't really speak to it. But either path you choose, you have to do the same thing: Find something positive to fill the void left by the bad behavior and become the new instinct. I have a feeling I've talked in circles or lost my original point somewhere (chalk another post up to the long-term effects of weed?) __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

08-30-2006, 02:38 PM	#77
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	Well, I'm not a Christian...as far as AA goes that IS a problem (though they croutch their language otherwise they ARE a Christian organization--don't believe me? Come to a meeting in the heart of Ohio and we shall see who is ridiculed--Higher Power indeed!) Plus, the whole 13th step process sickens me---i can't take it. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

08-31-2006, 12:44 AM	#79
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Whatever. The bottom line is that WE DON'T KNOW JACK about the genetic components of either addiction or homosexuality, and don't hold your breath because, as much as people might lie to themselves, they don't want to know. It's all completely chock full of political and emotional BULLSHIT. Everyone needs the ability to hold that bit of denial close to themselves at night to lull them to sleep, gay bashers need to feel that homos are just disgusting people making disgusting choices and gays need to feel that it's all out of their control and ingrained into who they are. If we had a definative answer for any of these questions it wouldn't change the minds of those affected one iota. Addiction less than homosexuality perhaps, but still the same idea in there. Everything will depend on what political party is in power when the data comes in. If it's no genetic connection and we have a liberal, it'll become ghost science. If it's completely depedent on genetics and we have the conservatives? Same story. Everyone lies - House M.D. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

09-02-2006, 10:34 PM	#84
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I wonder if he is an alcoholic? I've known guys that would get drunk every time they hung with drinkers, yet never drink at home or out with non-drinkers. It can be a social scene, trying to be one of the boys, fitting in and being accepted, sort of thing. For these lucky people it's a matter of changing environment. Just wondering? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-05-2006, 11:06 AM	#87
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	yesman, I think that you're the exception rather than the rule. I agree, there's too much "feeling" going on instead of action. But whatever chemical your brain produces that lets you put down a physically addictive substance without even looking back....damn. You need to bottle that stuff, you'd make a fortune. My mom is the same as you. She can't even fathom why anyone would want to put anything in their body that makes them that sick. There would be no way to explain the need to her, because her brain doesn't work that way. You two are lucky. For people on the other end of the spectrum, they can no more stop using than they can hold their breath for 30 minutes. If they try, the pressure just builds and builds until they can't take it anymore. I think there's evidence that it's physiological as much as psychological, but I don't have any idea where to get proof of it. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

08-31-2006, 08:50 AM	#82
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Wikipedia entry on biology and sexual orientation

09-03-2006, 04:10 AM	#85
WabUfvot5 Operations Operative Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 634	Alcoholics can sometimes have a lot of triggers. Not all of them can be avoided no matter where you flee.

09-05-2006, 10:39 AM	#86
yesman065 Banned - Self Imposed Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,847	After having been a drug user for many years and being married to an alcoholic for 18 (now separated) I have come to believe that I am "one of the lucky few" who can turn it on or off at will. Pot, coke, shrooms, meth and so on. I would do as I pleased when I pleased and then stop at the drop of a hat. This made it unbelievably difficult to comprehend that she couldn't do the same. Off we went to counselor after counselor (lost track after 6 or 7) then AA meetings both she separately and many many together. At this point I feel very little empathy or sympathy for those who are still using or "trying" to stop. Until it is over and an entirely new pattern of behavior is established, they are still using or going to soon. My life and the lives of my children were ripped apart and destroyed by her and her fuckin drinking and drugging. NO sympathy here for any user - period. Get clean and I might try to cut you some slack. If I had it my way, AA and every other "how do you feel?" group would be eliminated and the money given to the victims of these people. Put their kids in school and get the children some counseling - screw the addict - it their problem and I believe they CHOSE it. As far as your boyfriend and the "look in his eyes" That look is called desperation! He will say and do ANYTHING to get out of where he is and will screw, steal from, cheat and lie to anyone he can to do it. Hint hint - his mom probably already knows this and that is the reason for her behavior. I'm sorry to come down so hard on you, but I lived the life you are headed for firsthand and it TOTALLY SUCKS. I am what Bri would call a savior - I tried to do everything and anything to help her out of her troubles and realized way too late that it was not only her life she was ruining, but also mine and her kids. I came riding in on my white horse trying to save the "poor damsel in distress" What a joke she just wanted someone to clean up every mess she created and support her habit. I have heard this story a hundred times and didn't realize I was living it til I got out and over my own addiction which I finally realized was. . .HER. My unsolicited advice - run, Bbro run like the freakin wind and never look back!

09-05-2006, 11:38 AM	#88
yesman065 Banned - Self Imposed Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,847	Knowing I have "done it all" and still was able to walk away when I chose to so do, makes me the rare exception to the rule. Of that, I am painfully aware - my issue is with those who believe they can and try to save, help or whatever those who are "the rule." I feel badly for these people and want to help them before they lose or waste years of their lives and endure unnecessary pain and damage. Here I go again - tryin to be the savior - see Bri - I can't help it.

09-05-2006, 03:56 PM	#89
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	You know what is really weird...as addicted I am to everything else (name something: I'm addicted to it) I am not addicted to cigarettes. I can smoke one and then never have another one again. I've been a 'social' smoker and now I don't even do that. WHY would I NOT become addicted to smokes? So. Weird. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

09-05-2006, 08:23 PM	#90
9th Engineer Bioengineer and aspiring lawer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 872	Druggies can be fun in their own way too you know. I've never seen anything funnier than a guy on both shrooms and speed at the same time. He was running around our quad for at least 45 min before campus security finally caught him. He thought he was being attacked by ninja gnomes or something and kept screaming at them while pretending to be the Master Sergent. He even went so far as to throw a grenade (I can't imagine what he was seeing right then) and then jumped off a height divider into a pile of snow about 25 feet below him, rumor has it he broke 2 ribs. Absolutly hilarious. __________________ The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

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