Mexico Is Gonna Sue Us.

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Well, gee, that hadly matters...he's got to have *somebody* to harrangue.

MaggieL was posting so many strong opinions. Now that I have asked only one basic simple question, suddenly MaggieL is a victim? How curious that she cannot even provide minimal facts, therefore is a victim? Bull. MaggieL - if you blame illegal immigrants for their plight, then you damn well better have logical facts to support your accusations. Otherwise, others will rightly assume you are stereotyping or racist.

And so we have this so simple question: "Why does massive illegal immigration exists and why is it so necessary?" Why do you have a problem demonstrating to all that your opinions are based in facts - not in stereotypical bias? Why can you not even answer a simple question that you should have asked yourself long ago; before having an opinion? Why not just answer the question to prove your opinions are based in something more than emotion and stereotyping? Jose Mexicana, et al is the victim here if your opinions are only based in personal bias. "Why does massive illegal immigration exists and why is it so necessary?"

Originally Posted by Ibram

How come people's solutions to personal attacks are always even lower personal attacks?

You're right. I was out of line to tear into Brianna like that and I apologize.


Carry on with the tw vs MaggieL match.

[Ibby]

At least you can admit when you're wrong and apologise, a very admirable attribute, and one that too few have.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by tw

~snip "Why does massive illegal immigration exists and why is it so necessary?"

Why does it exsist?
I am not sure but I think it is because of a ' you can have all this if you go over there' mentality. America is rich in benefits.We make it easy to get it. OR Some just want to send back to Mexico the american dollar. You can live well there for cents on the dollar. Well so can the people starving in Africa but they are separated by an ocean. Same with Cuban people. They leave to escape something.

Why is it necessary? I think it is only nescessary to the mexican government? It brings money in without having to put any out? The Mexican dream seems to be the US.


My only solution and I said it before half in jest was to invest in Mexican property. I think if I was rich I would move there and start building. Probably resorts. I don't know. There is just something that says. This thing you don't want ( your mexican land, your home) I could use. I would take it and make it grow if I could.


but why dosn't the government in Mexico invest in itself? I think that is a big part of the problem.


edit [I know my post is simplistic and nothing you all havn't already gone over already. Just adding my two cents. Or penny :P]

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Ibram

How come people's solutions to personal attacks are always even lower personal attacks?

In all my time on the net I never ever heard anyone say that before. I am glad it isn't the norm at the Cellar.


...right on....

[Ibby]

What gets me is when things that have nothing to do with anything are brought up, not to win an argument, but out of sheer spite.

IDEALLY:
One person posts an opinion on the subject at hand.
Another posts with their opinion on the subject, and on thefirst person's opinion.
They discuss, in a civil manner, why they have their views.

REALLY:
One person posts an opinion on the matter at hand
Another posts with an opinion soley on the first person's opinion
Another posts with an opinion on person 2 due to their opinion of the first person's opinion
Person 2 posts back about person 3.
Person 1 gets pissed at person 2 and posts things about them too.
Person 4 comes and defends person 2
Persons 5, 6, and 7 egg on both sides
Person 8 comes in with an opinion on the subject at hand, and is promptly ignored in the lust for blood.
Person 2 actually posts about the subject at hand too, and is promptly attacked for their view, regardless of what it is
Person 2 fights back with something about person X, who didn't like their opinion
Person X posts back with a scathing post about person 2, which has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but is a very well laid-out attack on everything that makes person 2 who he or she is.
Things escalate from there.

Attacking the foundation of someone's opinion is a perfectly fine way to discredit their opinion. Attacking the person to make them look bad in general to discredit their opinion is an awful, low thing to do. There's a reason why Samma-Vaca, Right Speech is one of the steps in Buddha's 8-fold path... though that wont mean a thing to a lot of you...

Just think before you speak. If your words may harm someone, don't say them.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

"Why does massive illegal immigration exists and why is it so necessary?"

That used to be called "begging the question" before morons started using it to mean what it sounds like it should mean. Now you have to call it petitio principii to avoid confuising the dimwitted.

Massive illegal immigration isn't "necessary". And clearly the "plight of illegal immigrants" is indeed "their fault" unless they were drugged, kidnapped, and dumped on this side of the border...in which case they're not immigrants, and (lacking criminal intent) arguably not even illegal.

But that's not what happens, of course.

If you in fact actually meant "the plight of poor Mexicans" (which is what they are regardless of what side of the border they're on), then that's a different question...so that question is really "Why is there poverty?"

I'm sure you have lots of explanations (with attached utopian solutions) for it. But if your solutions involve giving away things that belong to other people, you may have trouble finding support for your position (except of course among the recipeints of your proxy-based largesse). But it's an excellent answer to the "why illegal imigration exists" question. Speaking of "giving away things that belong to other people", I agree with you that agricultural subsidies are indeed a huge problem. All we have to do is get everybody to agree to give them up all at once. (Good luck with the Europeans on that one.)

I just don't buy "eliminate agricultural subsidies and corruption in the Mexican and US governments" as a practical solution to illegal aliens.

[tw]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

Why does it exsist? ... America is rich in benefits.We make it easy to get it. OR Some just want to send back to Mexico the american dollar.

Which returns to a basic economic concept paraphrased in the book "The World is Flat". For example, The Economist has a famous index - The Big Mac index - that measures currency inequities using something that would otherwise cost same everywhere - MacDonald's Big Mac. Economic distortions are the only reason a Big Mac does not cost same everywhere because economic forces make the world flat.

Another example: labor prices are constant everywhere in the world where a worker is paid what he is worth (a reference to a WSJ article on an American manufacturer who returned from Mexico to save his company). Political (self serving) agendas such as government trying to fix economies (tariffs, stopping flows of labor, things that GATT attempts to eliminate) cause economic distortions. And so we have a massive economic distortion between North and Central America. A symptom of government or other forces that create problems. A problem that we will foolishly solve with a 250,000 troops on the border? Nonsense. 'Force based' solutions (ie Vietnam War, Great Wall of China, tariffs) begs the obvious: people have not a clue what the real problem is.

A simple question suggests how naive many posters were. How much do you know about that Cancun conference that broke up because US and France are now so anti-free trade? How much do you know about this Doha round that has recently missed another milestone; that may be the first free trade round to fail - and directly traceable to a nation once a bastion of free trade. Curiously two countries that also have immigration problems. Countries blamed for being anti-free trade. If economic forces were not being distorted by anti-free trade forces, then a massive immigration problem would not exist.

My only solution and I said it before half in jest was to invest in Mexican property.

Well you are long behind times. A large American community (I believe north of Mexico City) is popular with American retirees. But again, the world is flat. Let economic forces determine where jobs are needed, homes are desired, etc, then those economic forces create equity, equality, and monetary stability.

And so we return to authors of posts who would demand, instead, a 'big dic' solution. Blame the victims of economic forces that create those victims. Jose Mexicana is a classic victim when governments, political and hate based biases, and other anti-social forces create this need for massive immigration. A problem only made worse when the 'powers that be' (governments), their mouth pieces (Rush Limbaugh political extremists), and the naive (those who have strong opinions but cannot even answer a simple question) conspire to make Jose Mexicana (and others throughout history just like him) the victim. AND then blame Jose for his own plight.

It simply takes us right back to a simple question. A question that anyone who makes decisions only after first learning facts would have no problem answering: "Why does massive illegal immigration exists and why is it so necessary?"

Demonstrated after watching for so long so many Cellar Dwellers with such strong opinion: then why can no one answer this so obviously simple question? MaggieL who posted most often a strong opinion has simply made herself a 'poster boy' for those who have opinions but did not bother to first learn facts.

"Why does massive illegal immigration exists and why is it so necessary?" A question so easily answered if one first learned the 'what, why, how, and whos' long before having opinions.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

That used to be called "begging the question" before morons started using it to mean what it sounds like it should mean. Now you have to call it petitio principii to avoid confuising the dimwitted.

Well MaggieL, if your only response is to insult, then that puts you in a category with famous dimwit - Rush Limbaugh. Rush Limbaugh's technique, when exposed as a liar - is to attack the messenger. This was also how Nazis did it in 1930s Germany.

You are posting personal attacks so that you don't have to answer the fundamental question on illegal immigration. You are demonstrating reasons why massive illegal immigration exists. Too many Americans so hate America - the definition of anti-American - as to have opinions without first learning facts. If you had facts, you would not repeatedly post insults.

However, and again, why not just answer the simple question? I only post a simple question that you apparently either fear or just cannot answer. "Why does massive illegal immigration exists and why is it so necessary?"

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

Well MaggieL, if your only response is to insult...

I didn't insult you.

(As an aside, I insulted the ignorant who say "begs the question" when they mean "raises the question" rather than "assumes the truth of the proposition at issue", which is what the phrase means. You didn't do that. Did you? Or did you just go off half-cocked again?)

My answer to "Why are there illegal aliens in the US?" was "Because there's poverty in Mexico". My answer to "Why is illegal immigration necessary?" was "It isn't necessary". Sorry if you don't like my answers, or if they don't lead the discourse where you want it to go, but that doesn't entitle you to ignore them and then rant that they're unanswered.

I don't buy the idea that a Big Mac would cost the same everywhere if there werent evil men manipulating markets. There are other factors at work. Jared Diamond explores some of them in "Guns, Germs and Steel", although I certainly don't buy into all of his explanations

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

My answer to "Why are there illegal aliens in the US?" was "Because there's poverty in Mexico". My answer to "Why is illegal immigration necessary?" was "It isn't necessary".

Well, if immigration is not necessary, then why must millions suffer so much only for jobs? Why are those same jobs not created where these same people already live? Why does Jose Mexicana take great risks, spend massive sums, leave their families, etc only because they want to make life harder? No. Immigration is made necessary by economic conditions where free markets (ie NAFTA) are mostly still mythical.

Yes, poverty is a reason they are leaving. But poverty is only a symptom. Why are countries (so full of resources) not able to create jobs for their people? Poverty does not exist on its own. Poverty is created; poverty is only a symptom.

Originally Posted by The Economist

Burgernomics is based on the theory of purchasing-power parity, the notion that a dollar should buy the same amount in all countries. Thus in the long run, the exchange rate between two countries should move towards the rate that equalises the prices of an identical basket of goods and services in each country.

That assumes free markets exist. But the dollar does not buy same in both NAFTA countries. Forces (not evil because evil has no existence in a real world) forces in America pervert free market economics. Whereas the Big Mac is $3.15 in the US, the same Big Mac is only $2.66 in Mexico. Free markets - as NAFTA was suppose to create - does not exist. If a free market really existed, then the dollar would be approximately same in both nations. Free markets that would eliminate poverty just do not exist.

At $2.66, then Mexico is a superior place to create jobs - employ those exact same people. Why are those same people (who are so productive in the US) not employed in same jobs in Mexico? US firms could easily make jobs where their employees live? Mexico having superior climate for many agricultural products, then why can Jose Mexicana not start his own farm?

Again, the United States has perverted free markets. WTO has repeatedly ruled against America, time after time, for violations of World Trade agreements. A latest violation being steel - intentionally created by George Jr's administration to pervert free market economics. So how many people even heard of the massive world wide walkout in Cancun because the US and France were opposed to free trade. How many somehow know Jose Mexicana is a victim of his own making rather than learn that America has become so anti-free trade?

Why, if their ppp index is so low - and therefore a perfect place to create new jobs - complete with an economy full of people who need jobs - then why does the US not create jobs there? In a free market, America would create jobs where impoverished and productive people live.

NAFTA is suppose to be about free trade between US, Canada, and Mexico. Then why did the US close borders to Canadian lumber for so many years? America restarted that trade only after Canada - under American pressure - agreed to impose tariffs on its own exporters. Why is that called free trade? Of course every lurker here knows that story? If not, well, how anti-free trade is America? Do you really know?

How can poverty exist in Mexico if NAFTA is one big free trading zone? It cannot. As burgernomics demonstrates, Mexico is clearly economically better to make things - $3.15 in US and only $2.66 in Mexico. Same productive people who would rather have jobs at home only need those jobs where they live. Due to American laws, many of those jobs cannot go to the workers. Illegal immigration made necessary by a nation that promotes the propaganda of free trade and makes laws against it.

Amazing how those who blame Jose Mexicana somehow forget why that poverty exists. Burgernomics demonstrates why those poverty regions should be home to so many new jobs.

And if that were not bad enough, what happens when Castro dies. Suddenly we have a whole new influx of Cubans also seeking jobs. Do we fix American laws before the problem gets worse? Or do we instead blame Jose Mexicana AND Carlos Cubana for being victims?

Give George Jr credit. His heart is in the right place when he talks about illegal immigration. To neocons, he sounds like a very lefty liberal. But his actions are completely devoid of useful objectives. George Jr's supporter get rich when free trade is restricted in their favor (ie tariffs). Review massive bonuses given to the only reason why America steel manufacturers are so bad. Top steel management gets rich when America restricts free trade for the advantage of overpaid and anti-American corporate management (not to be confused with other industries chock full of patriotic management).

Government can create problems - not solve them. Illegal immigration is a classic example of a problem created (in part) by government. If government cannot eliminate problems it creates and impose on Jose Mexicana, then what will government do when Carlos Cubana joins the influx?

Why does poverty exist? Are these same so productive people the reason for poverty at home? Of course not. Not for one minute. And yet so many Americans still believe this myth that free trade economics exists between America and its neighbors. Not for one minute which is why illegal immigration is obviously necessary. Poverty is a symptom (in part) of anti-free market laws. Poverty is only a symptom of the same reasons why illegal immigration is necessary.

Is this long? Of course. If it was short, then it would be lies (half truths) for Daily News readers – who actually believe America has promoted free markets this century. The question asks why illegal immigration exists and is necessary. The answer is (in part) in economic conditions that so many American don’t even know exist. Americans so ill informed as to not even know of that massive world wide walkout in Cancun. American so ill informed as to have trouble with a simple question: why does this illegal immigration exist? Why does free market economics not create new jobs in a fellow NAFTA nation? Are you ready when Carlos Cubana joins the influx? It’s only going to get worse if we American don’t address our anti-free market attitudes – and start asking some other embarrassing questions.

[Undertoad]

OK, that is perhaps the dumbest post you've ever written here, and I say that with some due respect.

I don't even know where to begin with it. We could examine why free trade does not mean free markets in either trading country. We could look at the massive facilities in Mexican border towns, sprung after NAFTA, where the US has very obviously created thousands upon thousands of manufacturing jobs in Mexico. We could point out how since you agree protectionism doesn't create wealth, you can't argue that protectionism creates incentives for illegals. We could point out that most jobs for illegals are construction and farm work and those jobs have to be done in the US. We could visit the seven signs of non-competitive states and figure out why some societies grow while others stagnate. We could take $1000 down to Tijuana and see how long we can keep it before losing part of it to police bribes.

Or we could just say it's W's fault - which would be great news, because that means the problem ends in two and a half years. But that just begs the question - if he's fucking this country up so badly, why do they still want in?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But that just begs the question...

Oh, no...UT! It was such a great post until you said that, now it's all ROOOOND! :-) I was just bagging on people who misuse "begging the question". :-)

It's especially appropos where tw is involved...he loves burying his tallking points in the petitio principii assumptions behind "just a simple question", and then accuses you of dissimulation and cowardice when you won't take the bait.

[Undertoad]

You were just saying it, that must be why I used it... oops :p

[skysidhe]

I think tw and maggie are both saying the same thing only in different languages.

Poverty is a symptom. Poverty is the fault of the government and so it is their fault they are comming here instead of staying there and making it better.

See how easy that was. :P


Frankly I don't want to sit here and pretend to have much of an opinion. I will try to learn more but that's all I can do.

Mostly I think about that retirement community and think. Well if they want my country and don't want theirs I'll take it.

sorry, that's just my honest take on it this am.

* yawn *

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

I think tw and maggie are both saying the same thing only in different languages.

I think tw and I have extremely divergent views on the nature of and proper purpose for government.