Has our intelligence dropped to zero already?

[lookout123]

i don't disagree that it should have been a psych emergency call, but if it had been then a different group of people would be pissed.

[mrnoodle]

There are no answers anymore that DON'T piss someone off. Vive la difference I guess. None of the opposing sides of these arguments are powerful enough on their own to actually destroy the world, so I guess the compromises will turn out to be ok.

But if that little girl was mine, she would've performed approximately .0000429 seconds of that little display.

No, I don't have kids, why do you ask?

[dar512]

Hey Glatt. Are you going to answer my question in #71?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by dar512

Hey Glatt. Are you going to answer my question in #71?

I don't have a magic bullet answer.

Basically, with a kid who is disrupting the classroom, the kid should be sent to the principal's office, and the parent should be called to come get them. I think that will work in the overwhelming majority of cases. When it doesn't work, the kid should be romoved from the classroom for good, and put into a special class of some sort for kids with special needs. If the kid is diruptive to the point of being a danger to themselves or someone else, I think it's perfectly appropriate for the cops to come in. Shouldn't happen too often.

The idea is that it shouldn't ever get to this point. If the parents send kids to school who are ready to learn, and the teachers keep the kids engaged, this won't happen often. The detention/suspension route in high school has decent results, but isn't age appropriate for kindergarten. Good teachers have lots of tricks up their sleeve. I'm not one so I don't know them all, but if the teacher senses trouble brewing in a kindergarten classroom because the kids are getting bored, he/she should consider switching topics. A good teacher will come up with lesson plans that will keep the kids engaged. Kids who are bad chemistry when seated together should be put at separate tables. Much disruptive behavior is because the kid is seeking attention. Give them attention ahead of time, and they won't need to seek it. So have a schedule of special jobs for the kids so they feel like they are part of things. Not real jobs, but token ones. Line leader, door holder, caboose for the line, helper, paper-passer-outer. Whatever. I don't know all the tricks. But the good teachers do.

[BigV]

disclaimer:

have just rec'd news of death in family. will post fuller response eventually.

summary:

dar512, glatt, bigv--right.

troubleshooter, catwoman, silverfox, mrnoodle--varying degrees of missing the point, mostly off base.

onyxcougar--alone in a special category of wrongness.

later..

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by BigV

disclaimer:

have just rec'd news of death in family. will post fuller response eventually.

summary:

dar512, glatt, bigv--right.

troubleshooter, catwoman, silverfox, mrnoodle--varying degrees of missing the point, mostly off base.

onyxcougar--alone in a special category of wrongness.

later..

Wow, should I feel chastened?

[kerosene]

I still think some kids need spankings (at least temporarily) and some don't. My son has never been spanked. He has never needed it. He is so sensitive that time-outs and taking priveledges and discussions get through to him. He can be stubborn, but that is when his lightsabers are put atop the fridge for a couple of days and he is reminded why when he asks. My step-son, on the other hand, rarely responds to his name, let alone punishment. Nothing seems to bother him or change his behavior unless it is accompanied by a spanking from his dad. After a few days of being with us, a threat of "Do you want a spanking?" does the trick. Every once in a while, he challenges the threat, and finds it to be real. But, for the most part, it works. It isn't laziness. It isn't violent. It is very controlled and dad and him talk about why he got the spanking afterwards. He finally takes it seriously. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Otherwise, this kid wouldn't learn anything, because he just doesn't listen. Difference in wills, difference in personalities.

[mrnoodle]

My brother's 2 year old daughter is the same way. She gets snooty from time to time, tests her boundaries, etc. But if my brother says "No" sternly, it almost breaks her heart. She lies down on the floor facedown until the unimaginable pain goes away.

Not so with her mom. She'll just turn her head away and sneer. I think it's because they're both women.

[xoxoxoBruce]

First you have to get their attention.

[wolf]

Young children are remarkably similar to mules, however, you often need to use different methodologies to get them to see things your way.

While I understand the school district's apparent policy regarding "no touch" I work with a number of different schools and school districts that allow for a "therapeutic hold" (which usually requires a buttload of documentation to justify it after the fact).

Staff are specifically trained to do such things ... you can't just jump on a kid and hold them down until they stop screaming, sometimes because in those kinds of situations, not screaming = unconscious or dead. There is a right way, and if you have the certification, you can justify the use of the hold.

The kid in the video is not merely the poster child for Ritalin, I think she's probably the poster child for horse tranquilizers.

My own school experience lacked paddles (even during my brief tenure in Catholic School), but I did detour around a little scene in my high school where a gym teacher was in the midst of a learning experience that involved throwing one of the stoners into a bunch of lockers and a lot of very loud instruction. The student seemed to understand the lesson after that.

BigV, sorry to hear about the death in your family. I wish you peace, understanding, and healing.

[dar512]

Thanks for responding, Glatt. I think we're basically in agreement.

[OnyxCougar]

I'm sorry about the sad news, Big. My thoughts are with you.

[BigV]

This topic is stealing my rest. I cannot sleep well. I want peace. Here goes.

Zero-th: If you think that handcuffing the little girl was an inexcusable overreaction by the police, you are excused from the following long-ass post. If, on the other hand, you think there was any justification for the actions of the school staff or the police, you are welcome to read on as I try to explain myself. You may learn something, but if you don't, stay away from my kids. Far, far away.

First, what's not at issue here. Folks, parenting is important. It is most important. It's so important that we have a whole forum full of threads full of advice and conversation and support. So stipulated.

Second, I know threads drift, get hijacked, wander. I wish to redirect our focus on the point that is most important.

Now, this part of the conversation began with an item about the authorities reaction to a student's behavior. Sadly and surprisingly, there have been plenty of examples. In all the examples, there have been voices on both sides of the issue. Some say that the response was appropriate. Some say that the response was inappropriate. Bounteous argumentation was enjoyed by all.

I wish to talk about the most recent incident, the little girl that was handcuffed at her kindergarten. This was wrong. This was a mistake of the first order. I have read all the posts subsequent to my introduction of the story. Rather than cheer the points I agree with and refute the ones I disagree with, point by point, I will imagine I am speaking to the child's teacher, or to her vice principal, or to my child's school's staff. I'm speaking to the adults responsible for my children while they're at school. In this imaginary conversation, I'll refer to the points made by my friends here in the cellar. I may refer to them or my imaginary school person, the imagined adult responsible for my child, may refer to them.

The key here is that the adults are the ones responsible.

You have an enormous responsibility. Your work is difficult and rewarding. Frustrating and fulfilling. Important and undervalued. When I send my child off to kindergarten, I'm putting him in your hands for a little while. I get him back later, you get the day shift and I get graveyard and swing. Same kid back and forth. You count on me to get him there, on time, clean, rested, prepared for another day of fun, and if there's some learning snuck in, so much the better *wink wink*. I try to make sure that he's in a maximally receptive state for what he faces in kindergarten.

It's a big place, kindergarten. Waaay bigger than home. Bigger than daycare. So many kids, big kids, and bigger adults, people he doesn't even know. And so much to take in! Papers and books and games and puzzles and songs and just everything. The transition from home to kindergarten is on the same scale as the transition from school to work. Remember those days? Find a place to live? Pay bills? Buy food? File taxes? What's that about?!? Get here do this fix that!! So many rules to follow, some written and some not. It was not so long ago that you don't remember the high points and the low ones. It's a big change and sometimes you were unable to cope. Fortunately you have your family and friends to rely on for help.

Kindergarten's different in this way though, my son has you to rely on for help when he can't cope.

When he can't get that math thing, grrr, I know you'll help him. You have those teaching skills you learned back in school. Just lay it out in a different way and it'll be clear. When he's stuck with reading, just say it in a new way and show him how to overcome that obstacle. When there's confusion and conflict with his classmates, use your wisdom to bring reconciliation. If he's sad one day, talk to him and comfort him. You're his advocate, his friend. When he falls on the playground and skins his knees, break out the first aid. If he's sick, send him to the nurse.

Whew, I'm tired out just saying all that. And I've covered, what, 1% of one day's challenges. You'll certainly have to use your judgement all the time. What's that? You're saying you suspect dyslexia is the root of the math trouble? We'll call the doctor. Reading problem is because he's an ESL student? We'll try to use more English at home. Sad and listless in class? No, I don't think he's sick, we had a death in the family this week. Trouble getting along with his classmates? Yeah, we're seeing trouble with his siblings too. We don't know why yet. Wipeout on the playground? Is he ok?! Whew, thanks for helping him. A fever? 101.5? Yes, I'll be there as soon as I can.

*steps out of story* You get the idea. Definitely a dialog between the teacher and the parent. But the point is that the teacher isn't alone. She (my son's teacher is a woman) has tools, she has support, she has people to consult, just as I do as a parent. But she's the adult in charge, on the spot. It's up to her, not my child, to make the right call in a given situation. Now sometimes that right call is a little benign neglect. I don't expect her to read for him, or solve his math problems or do everything for him. It's ok for him to struggle with it some. Not to the point of surrender in frustration, but she should let him try to work through the problem. Actually, this strategy is used all the time in all situations with the kids, at home and at school. Let them do for themselves while they can, and when they've reached their limit, step in and end the activity or finish it off for them.

Parents and teachers EVERYWHERE do this. Having trouble coloring and the kid's reached the crayon-breaking point. Bzzzt! Time to quit and move on to something else. Stymied with those *&^#&$% shoelaces? Ok, I'll tie them for you. When the limit is reached, the adult/parent/teacher has to step in and make a decision. In this particular case, it seems clear that the kid has lost control of herself. This sometimes happens and though loud and dramatic, is not by itself an emergency. When it happens in the frozen foods section because I won't buy the popsicles he wants, it's embarassing, but not an emergency. What's called for is some restraint. And just like coloring or shoelaces when the kid's resevoirs of restraint are dry, the adult must compensate. That means the restraint has to come from the adult. Both personal restraint to not overreact, and loaned restraint, for the child. Hold him. Speak calmly and lowly in his ear. It's right there, remember your arms are around him. Reassure him. Soothe him. Remove him from the situation. This did not happen in this case, and that's the first mistake revealed by the video.

Originally Posted by every misguided legalist apologist

You can't touch him! Call your school!

I've heard enough of that crap.

As a matter of fact, I did call my school. I spoke to the principal. The rule is that the teachers and administrators are permitted and urged to use their judgement. It says that the teacher or administrator is allowed to use an appropriate amount of restraint to keep the kid from hurting himself or endangering others. He further said that if there's a question as to whether the restraint can be applied in a way that is safe for all parties, he may indeed call the cops. For example, if he is faced with a big kid that is "blown out", he may escalate the response to include the cops.

In the example of the five year old girl, if it had happened at my kid's school, you'd never have heard about it because the kid's tantrum would have been allowed to come to a natural and safe and quick end because she'd have been calmed down by the adults around her, with a long hug, maybe minutes long, and with soothing talk. It would not have been inflamed by a teacher towering over her, repeating the same ineffective chant. Dude, it is not working, time to switch to plan b.


Ok, she did switch, but to plan...e or f: Call the principal's office. That's a good plan. Tragically, the vice principal was no more adept at dealing with children than the hapless teacher. The vp was plenty big enough to restrain this child, she is just a little five year old girl. But she didn't. All that sidestepping in the office while the papers float to the floor--that's not restraint. That's playing zone defense, protecting her desk. Pitiful. Watch it again. All she does is move in an arc around her desk. She doesn't restrain the child. What would she have done if she thought the child would hurt herself, say by stabbing herself with a pencil or some scissors. Where's the hands off policy now? "Just don't bleed on the carpet"?

So everyone in the school is unable to restrain and calm this child. How sad, how f*ckin pitifully sad. "I can't do this!", so call the cops. I guess they're following the same policy as my school. But the level of competence displayed before throwing up the hands and calling the cavalry is vanishingly small.

I know less about police procedures than I do about school procedures. Maybe the rules say they gotta handcuff you. But I've talked to the cops plenty of times. I represent a vastly greater physical threat than that little girl, and I'm a handcuff virgin. Who will talk to this little girl? Who will have compassion? Who will listen to her? Who will advocate for her? Who?

And more frighteningly, if this is our response to the tantrum of a five year old girl in kindergarten, how will we react when something more dangerous confronts us?

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by BigV

In the example of the five year old girl, if it had happened at my kid's school, you'd never have heard about it because the kid's tantrum would have been allowed to come to a natural and safe and quick end because she'd have been calmed down by the adults around her, with a long hug, maybe minutes long, and with soothing talk. It would not have been inflamed by a teacher towering over her, repeating the same ineffective chant. Dude, it is not working, time to switch to plan b.

I honestly hadn't thought of this approach, and it looks good on the surface. But what happens when a parent objects? How long to hold a child, and at what distance? How could the video have shown what was being whispered in the ear? Where's the line between good touching and bad touching if you are restraining a child? Don't give me the logical answer, give me the lawyer's answer. This is a litigious society, and that teacher was hobbled by it. She can't lose her job over one tantrum. Calling the cops for a 5 year old is silly, but in the heat of the moment, terrified of angry parents and school boards, the teacher did what she thought was best.

[lookout123]

BigV - it is ridiculous, but - BUT - we don't know anything other than what we see on this video. who don't know how this student behaves normally, we don't know of previous problems, we don't know about previous interaction with the parents, etc. i'm not saying that the school was right or wrong - i am saying we don't know all the facts.

i know one thing for sure - i will watch a 5 year old be handcuffed before i allow myself to run the risk of being dragged to court by some parent who doesn't like the fact that i held their kid in a way that they don't appreciate. teachers aren't there to teach discipline and good behaviour. the parents are responsible for teaching the child it is inappropriate to throw over the top temper tanturms. the teacher is supposed to teach reading, writing, mathmatics, and revisionist history.