God and Devil - Page 6

Trilby · 03-02-2005, 04:59 PM

MrNoodle, I don't know exactly what you mean by that.

OC--the Jews for Jesus thing nauseates most Jews. Just ask them. Why is it one way or no way to salvation? I think the Universe supports the theory that God loves diversity.

OnyxCougar · 03-02-2005, 06:08 PM

The speaker of the word
and the hearer of the word
and the words themselves—
all three become spirit in the end.

-Mathnawi [VI, 72]

OnyxCougar · 03-02-2005, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

OC--the Jews for Jesus thing nauseates most Jews. Just ask them.

Oh, no argument there. I'm well aware. I've had discussions with Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Messianic Jews.

Quote:

Why is it one way or no way to salvation?

Because God said so.

Quote:

I think the Universe supports the theory that God loves diversity.

You're right! But He gave humans only a special gift: free will. You love him and want to do what he asks or you don't. If you don't, don't expect the good stuff later on.

The main difference between Jews and Jesus followers is that the Jews don't believe the final sacrifice was made by Jesus, so they are still waiting for the savior God said would come. They believe the savior will come, they just don't think Jesus (or Mohammad) was it.

Trilby · 03-02-2005, 07:28 PM

OC--I can honestly say that you are someone I admire for her logical, dispassionate arguments. (Me, being illogical and passionate, am lost here.)

That said:----HOW can you blithely say "there is one path coz God said so!"-???
Surely you, you above all others, know that God is accessed via every and all paths that God deems (beyond your imagination) legitimate. How one people can claim legitimacy above all others is---frankly---FUCKED. Arbitrary. Without merit. Do you dare my conversion? Do you? Do you dare insert yourself into my metaphysical experience and deem it unworthy?

smoothmoniker · 03-03-2005, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

Arbitrary. Without merit. Do you dare my conversion? Do you? Do you dare insert yourself into my metaphysical experience and deem it unworthy?

I'll give it a go.

Competeing claims to a single possibility don't argue for a multiplicity of correct answers. If you say that 4 x 12 = 48 and I claim that 4 x 12 = 67, just because we have competing truth claims doesn't mean that we have no grounds for deciding between them.

If your metaphysical claim is "No truth except what can be mutually inclusive"

and Onyxcougar's metaphysical claims is "There is a specific and accurate revelation of God to us, and it has authoritative claim", just because there are competing claims doesn't mean we have some sort of logical quandry here. We should do what we always do ... evaluate the justification for each claim. There's nothing arbitrary about it.

mrnoodle · 03-03-2005, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

Surely you, you above all others, know that God is accessed via every and all paths that God deems (beyond your imagination) legitimate. How one people can claim legitimacy above all others is---frankly---FUCKED. Arbitrary. Without merit. Do you dare my conversion? Do you? Do you dare insert yourself into my metaphysical experience and deem it unworthy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus

"When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only , but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

If I believe in Jesus, who said those things, how can I believe that there are multiple beliefs that lead to the same thing? And if I believe Jesus, then the second passage means that while no one on earth can judge your metaphysical experience, God can.

Trilby · 03-03-2005, 09:50 AM

Would God fool me and send me a fake metaphysical experience? Not very nice.

lookout123 · 03-03-2005, 10:22 AM

or would you fool yourself and stumble upon an experience that is more palatable and more in line with the way you think things should be?

OnyxCougar · 03-03-2005, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

Would God fool me and send me a fake metaphysical experience? Not very nice.

First, lets address "metaphysical experience". I'm assuming from your statement that you've had one. I don't think ANY metaphysical experiences are fake. They happen. I've had a few myself.

But what happened? Voices? Visions? Out of Body? Dream Walking? All these things are real. Also things that are real: Angels and Demons and yes, the Devil.

I don't know WHY you had your experience. I don't what your experience was. I don't know where it came from. How do you know it was God? Why would YOU think it fake?

Trilby · 03-03-2005, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

How do you know it was God? Why would YOU think it fake?

I've had many spiritual/metaphysical experiences in my life and while experiencing them they seemed very, very real (feeling god's love, "eureka"-type thoughts about life, love, the universe, etc. and SPECIFIC answers to prayerful questions all count for me as spiritual experiences) but after the magic of the experience wears off--I wonder if it was real or something I made up. I think sustaining the enormity of the experience is near to impossible but essential to growth and to knowing God. I wish I had more faith. I wish I could sustain those experiences and learn MORE from them. I wish I believed.

It has always been my understanding that Christians teach that Satan cannot read minds or whisper into ears--he can only predict behavior and acts accordingly.

OnyxCougar · 03-03-2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

OC--I can honestly say that you are someone I admire for her logical, dispassionate arguments. (Me, being illogical and passionate, am lost here.)

Pfft! Hardly, Bri. I'm the least logical, and moderate to highly passionate person I know. Often I stumble and I screw up what I'm trying to say, and I take things WAY too personally most of the time. (Everything is not about me, and I need to keep that in mind.)

I think the best thing I can say about myself is that I am open minded and willing to listen to other people. I really try hard to look at both sides of an argument and sometimes I even argue for the other side, (Devil's advocate) just so I can see where that side is coming from. (That really screwed LJ up for awhile.) I can just as easily jump over to the atheist position and the evolutionist position and argue their points too, although I must admit, not as easily or comfortably as I argue what I believe in.

I didn't come to my particular set of beliefs blindly. It's when I started searching in earnest that I found the answers. I'm perfectly willing to admit that I don't have all the answers, and that I could be wrong. I'll find out when I die, but unfortunetly, then I won't be able to tell anyone. But like my (apperantly offensive) ex-signature said, "I'd rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there wasn't," I've got nothing to lose if there's no God after all, "than live as though there is no God" that is, not doing what God says to do, which goes beyond being a good person and means LOVING GOD and HAVING A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM, "and die to find out there was." because then it's too late.

If that's not your belief, I can't change that. I can't make you worship, I can't make you love God, and I can't make you experience his love and grace. No one can do that for you, build that relationship, except you and God.

What I CAN do, is present thought-nuggets. Throw them out there and see what happens. What I SHOULD do, according to the rulebook, is tell everyone I can what God has done for me, and explain WHY I believe what I believe.

I don't like it when evangelists try to scare people into converting (Way of the Master, et al.). Jesus didn't walk around saying "Love me and do exactly as I say or you're going to HELLLLLLLLLL!" He did, however, say a bunch of stuff about coming to save the world, because the only way to get to heaven is through him, and that the most important thing you can do is love him.

I am not any specific religion. I can't be. I read the bible, and I try to make sense of the verses as best I can, and apply them to my life. Why do I do this? Because I have come to believe that there really was a Jesus and he really was the bodily incarnation of the creator of the universe (and me) and he laid down some rules that are in my best interest. I love him. Because I love him, I want to please him. I want to make him happy. I want his spirit to hang out with me and let me know when I'm messing up, and feel the joy when I do good. I have felt the spirit. That has been one of my metaphysical experiences. I want to keep that joy with me as much as possible, and that means keeping to the rules.

It's a weird mixture of being selfish and being selfless. By being selfless, I bring good things to myself, which I like. By loving God to the best of my ability, I ensure my place in the spirit forever. You get what you give.

So you see, actually, I'm really emotional and passionate about it.

[/long-ass ramble]

OnyxCougar · 03-03-2005, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

I've had many spiritual/metaphysical experiences in my life and while experiencing them they seemed very, very real (feeling god's love, "eureka"-type thoughts about life, love, the universe, etc. and SPECIFIC answers to prayerful questions all count for me as spiritual experiences)

they ARE! Isn't that feeling GREAT?!

Quote:

but after the magic of the experience wears off--I wonder if it was real or something I made up.

Why do you wonder? Why can't it be God? He made the whole universe and everything in it in 6 days, why is it out of his power to give you a revelationatory experience?

Quote:

I think sustaining the enormity of the experience is near to impossible but essential to growth and to knowing God. I wish I had more faith. I wish I could sustain those experiences and learn MORE from them. I wish I believed.

You've had an experience that no one can explain. Other people have them all the time. The believers nod knowingly and understand, the skeptics shake their heads and say words like "delusional" "hallucinations" and "ignorant".

In the movie contact, the scientist asks the theologian, "How can you be sure it isn't just self-delusion?" He says, "Did you love your father?" She replies, "Yes, very much." He looks at her and quietly says, "Prove it."

Trilby · 03-03-2005, 12:54 PM

Yes, relevations are spine-tingling things--but, but... why can't we live in a state more equal to that than this one we are usually in, the mundane, doubting, fearful life? There have been times in my life when I have had to rely on the spirit completely--and NOW is another of those times. When things are out of control I like to believe in a benevolent Being, but maybe I am making it up to soothe myself? I never know. Too many times God is silent. Too many times there are no answers.

OnyxCougar · 03-03-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

Yes, relevations are spine-tingling things--but, but... why can't we live in a state more equal to that than this one we are usually in, the mundane, doubting, fearful life? There have been times in my life when I have had to rely on the spirit completely--and NOW is another of those times. When things are out of control I like to believe in a benevolent Being, but maybe I am making it up to soothe myself? I never know. Too many times God is silent. Too many times there are no answers.

God speaks not only in experiential ways, but through his words.

If you always felt good, if everything was always ok, there would be no need for faith. (Why you think Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden? They didn't appreciate what they had, so blew it for everybody.)

There are all kinds of quotes like, "There's no testimony without the test," and "When you feel furthest from God is the time to praise him" and things like that.

If God came down to you RIGHT NOW, and said, "Hi, Brianna. I'm Jesus. The bible really is the inerrant book of my father's, and contains what I said, will you worship me now?" you would no longer need faith.

Lots of people have posted definitions of faith. (Esp in the CvE thread.) Faith is having no proof, but believing anyway.

Undertoad · 03-03-2005, 01:09 PM

People in other cultures use different means to pray to different Gods with entirely different goals, yet they describe the enlightenment they get in similar terms.

03-02-2005, 04:59 PM	#76
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	MrNoodle, I don't know exactly what you mean by that. OC--the Jews for Jesus thing nauseates most Jews. Just ask them. Why is it one way or no way to salvation? I think the Universe supports the theory that God loves diversity. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

03-02-2005, 06:08 PM	#77
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	The speaker of the word and the hearer of the word and the words themselves— all three become spirit in the end. -Mathnawi [VI, 72] __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

03-02-2005, 07:28 PM	#79
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	OC--I can honestly say that you are someone I admire for her logical, dispassionate arguments. (Me, being illogical and passionate, am lost here.) That said:----HOW can you blithely say "there is one path coz God said so!"-??? Surely you, you above all others, know that God is accessed via every and all paths that God deems (beyond your imagination) legitimate. How one people can claim legitimacy above all others is---frankly---FUCKED. Arbitrary. Without merit. Do you dare my conversion? Do you? Do you dare insert yourself into my metaphysical experience and deem it unworthy? __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

03-03-2005, 09:50 AM	#82
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	Would God fool me and send me a fake metaphysical experience? Not very nice. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

03-03-2005, 10:22 AM	#83
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	or would you fool yourself and stumble upon an experience that is more palatable and more in line with the way you think things should be? __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

03-03-2005, 12:54 PM	#88
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	Yes, relevations are spine-tingling things--but, but... why can't we live in a state more equal to that than this one we are usually in, the mundane, doubting, fearful life? There have been times in my life when I have had to rely on the spirit completely--and NOW is another of those times. When things are out of control I like to believe in a benevolent Being, but maybe I am making it up to soothe myself? I never know. Too many times God is silent. Too many times there are no answers. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

03-03-2005, 01:09 PM	#90
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	People in other cultures use different means to pray to different Gods with entirely different goals, yet they describe the enlightenment they get in similar terms.

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