God? Faith?

[OnyxCougar]

Yes, I believe that, but not because it's been simply fed to me, but because I looked at the evidence science has, and I've come to a different conclusion than evolutionists have.

It's not blind faith. In fact, it's precisely the opposite of blind faith, because I have reasons to believe the way I do about the age of the earth.

Blind faith is believing in evolution as a theory of origin...

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Yes, I believe that ... because I looked at the evidence science has, and I've come to a different conclusion than evolutionists have.

So you think that your understanding of the radioactive properties of carbon 14 is more enlightened than that of the world's scientific community?

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Beestie

So you think that your understanding of the radioactive properties of carbon 14 is more enlightened than that of the world's scientific community?

No, my understanding of carbon-14 dating is that it has proven time and again, consistantly, to be unreliable outside of a few thousand years. Why anyone would continually try to use a dating method that is wrong to prove millions of years is beyond me.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Blind faith is believing in evolution as a theory of origin...

I don't.

[Troubleshooter]

I picked "Only fools..." because there wasn't a choice equating to "Insufficient evidence for a truly rational mind".

[lookout123]

Blind faith is believing in evolution as a theory of origin...

*nitpicking* it isn't blind faith if they have looked at the info and have come to that conclusion based on the available info.

2 people can look at the same info, come up with 2 different conclusions without relying on blind faith. blind faith is the creationist who believes the way they do because their mom told them so and also the evolutionist who believes that way because his science teacher told him so...

*nitpicking concluded*

[lookout123]

Sorry LR - i've been trying to decide how i really want to respond. I can't respond with hard facts, as we all know. this is about faith. a choice. i realize that anyone who doesn't believe in A god will dismiss what i say, look for wholes in it, and some will choose to pick at my intelligence for believing in something they find ridiculous. I am not a theologian. I am answering some questions with the beliefs that are part of my personal faith. for those reason's i generally try to stay away from these discussions. i don't find much value in arguing over articles of faith. but...

Here's problem #1 with the fairy scenario...She forgot to show me the outcomes, and since I am omnipotent I would already KNOW that if I chose free will, the little bastard would cheat on me, leave his underwear on the floor 12 inches from the laundry basket, and gamble our life savings away.

it is an analogy, certainly not perfect... but before you get married you absolutely do know that your soon to be spouse will fail you. you may not know whether or not they will cheat, but you do know it is a possibility. you know for a fact that they will at some point lie, be unkind, be a slob, etc... you know this very well, but you probably choose to leave the choice to love you or not love you in his hands. that really isn't that different than what God has done with us. He knows we will fail him in some ways. He wants us to love and honor him. He wants the best for us. He allows us to make the choice to follow Him or follow our own path.

If I was an all loving spouse, saying that I would love you no matter what, why would I send to to eternal damnation if you end up choosing to divorce me (which i knew you were going to do)?

if your spouse has the choice to love you and honor you, but chooses to reject you - would you still welcome him with open arms? would you keep an open shelf in the closet for his things? would he still have access to your bed? If a person chooses to reject God throughout their life, why would we expect God to welcome them into His eternal kingdom - a kingdom that the individual has rejected?

Sounds a bit vengeful to me. If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules?

I don't feel it is vengeful, but i can understand your feeling on the issue. I do believe that God does love us all unconditionally. I believe that it troubles Him when we reject Him. "not a sparrow falls, without a tear from the One who made and put us here..." and all that. But He has given us the choice to accept Him and His gift to us, or reject Him and choose our own path.

as far as the "break his rules" part - We all break his rules. The most dedicated believer will sin. period. there isn't a measure of # of good deeds vs. # of bad deeds to get into heaven. it is an act of faith to 1) believe in God (a higher power than myself), 2) Believe that his Son died and rose again (to pay the wages of my sin), and 3) to accept this gift of redemption (acknowledge that I cannot buy or earn my way into His grace).

those are the requirements laid down in the New Testament. If you reject the Bible than none of this really matters to you. We as individuals have the freedom to accept these things through faith and believe them to be true - always knowing that we may be proven wrong in the end. We also have the freedom to choose our own path with the knowledge that we may be wrong in the end.

Again - this isn't meant to convince anyone of anything. I am not the answer man. This is my faith.

[mrnoodle]

the numbers on this poll are much closer than i thought they'd be. 19 believe in some kind of god, 19 don't. 3 think it's for fools (but didn't say whether they believed or not ), and 2 didn't vote because there was no pagan choice.

no wonder these threads go on for so long.

Beestie, carbon-14 dating isn't accurate beyond a few tens of thousands of years - it doesn't in any way discredit young-earth-creationist arguments. Ice core samples in Antarctica, on the other hand......

This argument isn't winnable by either side, based on available evidence. The Bible doesn't offer a clear timeline (trying to add up years based on geneological lists is just as silly as using carbon-14 dating to prove something is 44 gazillion years old), and the best science has to offer is "we don't know, just believe us, we're mainstream science, and we do experiments and stuff."

Creationists would do well to forget about the young-earth thing and concentrate on the more important messages in the bible.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Creationists would do well to forget about the young-earth thing and concentrate on the more important messages in the bible.

What in your opinion, is the most important message in the Bible?

I think that focusing on "more important messages" in the Bible are completely dependant upon the validity of the book.

If I can't believe, "In the beginning" then how can I believe anything else in the same book?

edit: this is what I mean by blind faith....I don't have it.

[OnyxCougar]

Let me put it this way:

If God didn't create the heavens and the earth, then it was not necessary for Jesus to die and resurrect.

Doesn't that make creation pretty important?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Let me put it this way:

If God didn't create the heavens and the earth, then it was not necessary for Jesus to die and resurrect.

Doesn't that make creation pretty important?

Not particularly. Neither is a proven occurence.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Let me put it this way:

If God didn't create the heavens and the earth, then it was not necessary for Jesus to die and resurrect.

Doesn't that make creation pretty important?

[insider Christian-talk]
Oh nononono. The fact that God created everything is very important. The biblical timeline vis-a-vis the "evolutionary" timeline is not. In fact, it's a distraction and a barrier to sharing the message of Christ - which is the central theme of our faith.[/insider Christian-talk]

As long as the argument amounts to "Whaddya mean we came from monkeys???" vs. "Pfft on your so-called god and your cute little non-Darwin-inspired 'theeeeeories'." nobody from either side learns anything.

I'm still convinced that all the people waiting for a "sign from God" will get none until they actively search with an open heart. No free magic shows. I also think that people who believe blindly will find themselves disappointed and doubting God more often than not. God gave you a brain, too.

DanaC, why so aggro?

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I'm still convinced that all the people waiting for a "sign from God" will get none until they actively search with an open heart. No free magic shows. I also think that people who believe blindly will find themselves disappointed and doubting God more often than not. God gave you a brain, too.

Bravo!

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

In fact, it's a distraction and a barrier to sharing the message of Christ - which is the central theme of our faith

The message of Christ is lost if you can't explain who He is or why He is essential. To explain that, you have to go back to the beginning.

The only book that has all the information you need to this end is the Bible. The bible has to be truthworthy in ALL of it's sections to be trustworthy in ANY of it's sections. Therefore, it has to be trustworthy from the first words.

I used to have a real big problem with the bible as a trustworthy document. In fact, it was the biggest reason why I wasn't a Christian. I was fully on the side of evolution and then I became a witch. I participated in ceremonies and came to know a creator God and I have seen spells, energies, and divination work firsthand.

Evolution went out the window. At that point I realized that we are not here by some lucky astronomical random chance, but rather, this universe was purposefully created and intelligently designed, and forces within that design can be manipulated, if you know how. Each person makes their own choices and must be responsible for the consequences of that choice.

I still believe that.

However, my study of the bible (including it's veracity) and other sources, along with my intellect, have shown me that there is compatibility with my beliefs as a witch and Christian beliefs, and harmony with what I have seen and experienced firsthand and those documents.

I guess you can call me a Christian Witch. And before anyone pulls out that old saying, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" in Exodus 22:17, makesofha the Hebrew word used, is more accurately translated as "practitioner of sorcery", which is someone who is performing EVIL rituals to pagan gods (Baal, etc). Many Wiccans now use the term "Warlock" to mean someone who practices the dark arts. So IMO, the passage is more correctly translated as "Do not tolerate an evil sorceress to remain among you." (Yes, I have done my homework, teacher.)

Right now I'm looking into the Messianic Prophesies and the likelihood of Jesus being the Messiah, versus what the Jews believe. It gets kind of confusing, but I want to look at all the evidence and make my own decision.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

The message of Christ is lost if you can't explain who He is or why He is essential. To explain that, you have to go back to the beginning.

Sheesh, I can't even post before 5 other people get in front of me. lol

Yes, I agree. But while we spend infinite amounts of time reflecting on the nature of hydrogen and oxygen and all the different ways they can be combined, there's water that needs bailing.

Right now I'm looking into the Messianic Prophesies and the likelihood of Jesus being the Messiah, versus what the Jews believe. It gets kind of confusing, but I want to look at all the evidence and make my own decision.

Jesus said he was him. That makes him either a liar, a nut, or the real deal.