Fascists

[Griff]

Well said Jag. Inject some actual capitalism into the picture.

Let's also remember that as a % of total population immigration is nowhere near a historic high.

Americas nativists have always felt threatened by immigrants, because they see the character of the country changing. People fear that we'll turn into a third world country but they miss the point that most immigrants come here to pursue the American dream, not to soak up welfare (of course we can address those who want to play the system). If we want a vibrant economy we need the influx of motivated people. That tendency to close borders and exclude people comes from the same kind of statist thinking afflicting other western economies. Too much state control in the name of conserving or liberalizing a country crushes individual initiative.

Somebody brought up the we're all immigrants thing, which reminded me of the beginning of the thread. I'd like to see the family tree of the BNP nutter, Griffin is a pretty common last name throughout Europe but especially in Ireland... If he's a British Nationalist of Irish descent there are some real strange social dynamics at work here.

[lookout123]

griff - i don't think anyone here is arguing against immigration. we are talking about illegal immigration. big difference. it isn't racist,statist,nationalist, or any other ist to say that it is foolish to support the influx of illegal aliens we see on a daily basis.

[jaguar]

Griff, 20 years ago he would have been kicking in Irish heads, today it's south asian ones, logic doesn't matter to these people as long as they've got someone's head to kick in. That said, it would be pretty funny.

The real problem with illegal or legal immigration is where it is poorly handled in terms of location and integration, illegal immigration makes it harder to manage it properly exacerbating the problem.

That said, I don't see thousands of 'bona fide' Americans lining up to pick oranges. Dumping a pile of people at the bottom end of the wage scale can help push some people up.

[lookout123]

actually there are legal migrant workers who do that work jag. and just to throw another little curve in here...

if there are low end jobs that sit empty, rather than importing labor from another country - wouldn't it make more sense to take the folks that have been on long-term unemployment and say "see here is a job" now they are earning their money.

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by lookout123

if there are low end jobs that sit empty, rather than importing labor from another country - wouldn't it make more sense to take the folks that have been on long-term unemployment and say "see here is a job" now they are earning their money.

This is a good idea. Right around where I am, I see plenty of Help Wanted signs in businesses that offer $6-8/hr jobs. There are 'support' jobs out there. However, there is an American mentality that those kinds of jobs are there for certain kinds of people, primarily non-white and/or poor and/or unskilled people. Around here, there's the "They'll do it and be thrilled about it because it's a job!" attitude. And there are plenty of migrants, legal or not, plenty of inner city/poor folk who're glad to get at least a little income and all this regardless of race. I know a couple of long-term unemployment folks from the temp agency and that's the attitude they have. To quote one of them: "Why should I stoop to fast food or janitorial when I don't have to? There are plenty of mexicans who need that job more than I do. And they'll be glad for it."

[jaguar]

There are a lot of people that consider a lot of work 'below' them and would rather sit unemployed than clean toilets and pick oranges in the midday sun.

[lookout123]

that is what i am saying though. instead of importing more workers and paying unemployment, make it mandatory for long-term (TBD) unemployment recipients work in these positions in order to keep receiving their checks. i used to be a hiring manager and i had guys turning down $10-15/hour jobs because it was beneath them and it was hardly worth giving the unemployment checks.

seems to me it would be a pretty easy way to get the long-term unemployment abusers off their butts.

[jaguar]

I thought the US unemployment was really, really tight? Like you get cheques for a month or so then it was just food stamps and the like. Yes, I am entirely ignorant on this stuff.

Australia has work for the doll schemes that keep most people doing something, you also have to apply for a certain amount of jobs and the employer reports to the unemployment guys if you're not really trying.

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by jaguar

Australia has work for the doll schemes that keep most people doing something, you also have to apply for a certain amount of jobs and the employer reports to the unemployment guys if you're not really trying.

It's kind of like that in Virginia. If you go on unemployment, you can collect as long as you prove to the agency you're actively looking for a job. You have to show proof of three job inquiries/applications/contacts weekly...just something that shows you tried. Also, the amount of unemployment you get is determined by how much you made before becoming unemployed, how long you were employed there and by the circumstances of your unemployment. Example, if you were making $50,000/yr at a job you had for 4 years and you were laid off due to downsizing, you'll receive more than if you made $50,000/yr at a job you held for 6 months and laid off due to kicking your boss in the yarbles. And I think how long you were employed and your circumstances also determine how long you can collect for..like 6 months, a year, 2 years..., but I'm not as sure about that.

I couldn't tell you about the other states, though.

edit: spelling

[lookout123]

unemployment is different state to state. i know that it is possible to stay on unemployment for at least a year if you work the system. all you have to do is get people to sign the paper saying you are interviewing for work. i used to get at least one person a week that would walk in all scruffy for an interview, go out of their way to point out their flaws and then ask me to sign the form - i always refused. anyone who came in and made an attempt to get the job i would bend over backwards to help though.

i seriously had a guy that was losing his home and one of his three cars but turned down a $12/hour office job because it was beneath him. he only made a little of $40k/year in his old position before he was fired. screw him, he shouldn't be getting tax money to support his arrogance or his laziness, whichever it is. i support sending him to pick oranges.

[lookout123]

This is another way that illegal immigration costs me and every other taxpaying american money. how long do you think this BS will be tied up in court?

Mexican: My Unborn Child Is U.S. Citizen
Tuesday, July 27, 2004

LOS ANGELES — Lawyers for a deported Mexican woman who is eight months pregnant are seeking her return to the United States to protect the unborn baby's health. They also say under federal law the fetus is a viable human being and thus may be eligible for citizenship rights.

That argument sounds like a longshot to some on both sides of the immigration debate. But in May, a U.S. District Court judge in Kansas City, Mo., approved a stay of deportation for a pregnant Mexican woman after raising, among other concerns, the question of whether her fetus could be considered a U.S. citizen. The judge is reviewing the issue.

That Missouri decision cannot set legal precedent, but immigration attorneys say it may offer them a new angle in deportation cases.

Last week immigration officials in Los Angeles denied a request to grant 30-year-old Maria Christina Rubio (search), mother of two young U.S.-born daughters, a temporary humanitarian visa to return to the United States because of complications in her pregnancy.

The request was filed by her husband's attorney, Luis Carrillo. Carrillo said he is considering whether to file a lawsuit against Immigration and Customs Enforcement for unlawful deportation.

Rubio's attorney Alexander Lopez said he had filed a separate visa request to immigration officials in Washington but had not yet received a response.


Carrillo said Rubio, who was hospitalized with complications in her fifth month and has suffered severe stomach pains throughout her pregnancy, needs to be back in the United States because the baby's health is at risk.

He also cited the Unborn Victims of Violence Act (search) of 2004, in which unborn children are granted equal protection under criminal law. Carrillo said that since the fetus is 8 months and would be viable outside the womb, it should be treated as a child born in the United States.

"The child was conceived in the United States and would have been born in the United States except that the mother was deported. Through no part of his own, the unborn baby is in Mexico," Carrillo said.

Virginia Kice, a spokeswoman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement (search), said the U.S. Constitution's definition of citizen is very clear.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States" are considered citizens under the 14th Amendment.

"It doesn't say all persons who were conceived in the United States," Kice said.

In the Missouri case, the court questioned whether the unborn child would be a U.S. citizen because its father was.

Lawyers for the U.S. Attorney's office in Missouri argued that while fetuses are protected under criminal law, the law does not restrict the government's immigration powers. Known as "Laci and Conner's Law," the legislation was enacted after the bodies of Laci Peterson and her unborn son washed up along the San Francisco Bay in 2003. Peterson's husband, Scott, is charged with their murder.

Rubio was deported July 16 after she went to what her husband says was to be a status conference on her residency request. Immigration officials say the pregnant Rubio was immediately deported after it was discovered her residency request had been denied two years before and that she had previously entered the country illegally.

Lopez, who did not attend that hearing, said he never received notice of the denial and that Rubio had continued to receive work permits.

Kice said Lopez was reached by telephone at the time and did not raise any concerns about Rubio's health. She also said Rubio received an exam from public health services to ensure she was fit to travel.

Alan Diamante, an advising attorney in the case, said he believes it is important to bring the fetus citizenship argument to court, although he acknowledged it may be difficult argument to win.

"You can say this argument is a stretch, but these are the types of arguments that attorneys have to make to get into court," he said. "Laws are always changing and becoming harsher, and immigrant lawyers have to be creative to be heard."

[Troubleshooter]

I think the idea is to get her back into the country for "health reasons" so that the child is born here and the whole thing becomes moot.

[Troubleshooter]

Millions of dollars in money and man-hours down the toilet because Mexico is a shit-hole.

Again...

[Clodfobble]

In Texas, I'm pretty sure if you're fired then they consider it your own fault and you get zero unemployment. And laws are also such that they can pretty much fire you for no reason at all, unless it's obviously race, gender, or sexuality-based. So you can only hope the company that's laying you off actually designates it as a downsizing and not just a plain ol' firing.

[DanaC]

Mmm....I just reread this thread *chuckles* I see I was in sabre rattling mood yesterday. I do apologise for any offence to various people.

Today however I am in a blindin' mood. Several really positive things have happened this week which have all lifted my humour somewhat :P The first was Imran being released from custody on Monday. We were all very pleased to see him back amongst his friends and family. He's lost shedloads of weight his hands shake continuously and he has trouble sleeping but that's to be expected and I am sure his confidence will return soon. ....The other positive thing to happen this week is that Saaid (sp?) a colleague and friend of my mum has been granted permanent residency in the UK and can now begin the process which will lead eventually to his earning Citizenship. I am so pleased about this. I have heard of his troubles and how much he suffered at the hands of the Taliban, this gentle old professor whose crime was to be an intellectual in Afghanistan.

On a slightly darker note, the Refugee Council has begun to learn about the existence of several ( possibly many) detention facilities which are not publicised or listed or made available to them for contact and which have been purposebuilt underground for the detention of "illegal" asylum seekers ...Underground detention centres.....Underground underneath ordinary civic buildings, the city's population in total ignorance of it's presence ....I find that deeply worrying. I wonder why it is that the Home Office and NASS will work with the Refugee Council in many centres...yet not the purposebuilt subterranean detention centres.....No information has beenpassed to the Council regarding these facilities they have learned of their existence first via rumour then from people who have spent time incarcerated underground.