Let's talk about Israel and Palestine...

[Cyclefrance]

Incredible, absolutely incredible, the nature of some of the commentary on this topic. Some of you need to reflect a little on your thoughts before you post. OK, this is an emotive subject, but the suggestion that a people who have no passports and who are blockaded into an ever narrowing strip of land should leave or die is ludicrous. So is the idea that any form of nuclear solution is either conceivable or justifiable.

It takes a very small amount of internet searching to see what the latest Israeli incursion is doing. Wiping out tunnels? So there are tunnels under farms are there, as farms and orchards have been been decimated through Israeli bombing? The economy and fundamental infrastructure that supports nearly 2 million people herded into an ever decreasing and already small area of land is being is being systematically destroyed - homes, utilities, services, everything.

If we had to rely purely Israeli reporting to reach our conclusions I could maybe possibly understand the severity of some of the comments being made. But the web gives us the opportunity to view from many sides. Not everything that comes from another source is propaganda. We are given too many reports to draw that conclusion. Western governments commenting that the situation is 'unacceptable' do nothing to convince the people of Gaza, and obviously Hamas, that we care - certainly not when this is backed up by million dollar and ongoing military support for Israel.

No innocent person deserves to die - this should be the fundamental driver behind anything the West decides to do to help resolve a situation that it is abundantly clear the two factions directly involved cannot. Take this as your foundation and then ensure that everything else you do observes this overriding instruction.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

blockaded into an ever narrowing strip of land should leave or die is ludicrous

We can try to talk about this topic. I hope we can. But nobody has really said what you said they said so it's not a conversation yet.

Is it your understanding that this blockade is meant to keep things and people in?

Do you have a take on the blockade preventing long-range missiles from Gaza? Do you believe that happened? Would you permit that?

It takes a very small amount of internet searching to see what the latest Israeli incursion is doing. Wiping out tunnels? So there are tunnels under farms are there, as farms and orchards have been been decimated through Israeli bombing?

Too bad they don't have any greenhouses!

If we had to rely purely Israeli reporting to reach our conclusions I could maybe possibly understand the severity of some of the comments being made. But the web gives us the opportunity to view from many sides. Not everything that comes from another source is propaganda.

Oh, guess what: not everything out of Israel either. I mean unless the Times, the Guardian, the Sun and the Mail are all identical in some form in their reporting on British issues. You may safely read the Jerusalem Post from time to time without getting some form of infection. It's a major newspaper written by a sophisticated, cultured, western people who think like us. There's even debate about what to do, as Israeli opinion is not uniform.

But you're suggesting ignorance is the cause of our disagreement. What do we do when people disagree with us? #1, we think they are ignorant of the facts. #2, we think they are idiots. #3, we think they are evil.



I'm glad you are only expressing #1. If tell you that I've studied the matter in great detail and have collected a ton of facts, please do not move on to #2 where I don't have the intellectual capacity to interpret them. That's a bad time for me.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

... No innocent person deserves to die ...

[Clodfobble]

It may be helpful to keep in mind that 1.) I also said every Israeli who has decided to stay there deserves to die, and 2.) I am, for better or worse, not consulted on matters of national policy, nor do I think I should be. I'm just expressing why I, and many others, find it impossible to give a damn about that part of the world anymore.

[Cyclefrance]

Noted, but I disagree with your views. And your last remark in particular saddens me, but I'll be objective in my response. If you and many others don't give a damn, then why do you show no concern that such a large trenche of the money your government takes from you in taxes is given over to military support for Israel? Why give millions of dollars to a cause you don't give a damn about? Surely, that expenditure should be given to something you do care about, shouldn't it?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

Why give millions of dollars to a cause you don't give a damn about?

They do, I don't.

Surely, that expenditure should be given to something you do care about, shouldn't it?

Caring about misused tax money, does not equate with concern about Mideast politics. If I want something to get pissed about, how about the three pallets, each containing $144,000,000 of my taxes, in US $100 bills, that the US Air Force flew to the Iraqi government, and then disappeared. You seem to think the US is a democracy. Wrong it's an oligarchy, and I'm not one of the oligs. I can effect this shit about as much as you can prevent the Queen from claiming all the swans as her own.

Since Pop bought a TV in 1952 I've been aware of the constant turmoil in the middle east. Like watching one of the mudpots at Yellowstone Park. There's a lot going on down deep but it's opaque, so you only see the bubbles as they rise to the surface. Thrown out? Driven out? Trying to escape? We'll never know why, only that they rise, then self destruct leaving nothing but stench behind.

Not one of the countries over there is our(US) friend. None of the people over there are my friend, and I suspect half of them would kill me in a heartbeat. As for, Oh, the humanity, the children, think of the children, I'll save my empathy for the other billions of people struggling against nature,(flood, famine, disease) rather than these fools with their generational blood feuds.

[Clodfobble]

Sure. But my government spends money in tons of ways I don't agree with. I actually believe that it's all the high-stakes caring that forces us to continue to pick a side. If more people felt as I do, the American government might not feel compelled to weigh in after all.

[Undertoad]

No innocent person deserves to die - this should be the fundamental driver behind anything the West decides to do to help resolve a situation that it is abundantly clear the two factions directly involved cannot.

Were you aware of this? The dying Gazans, they're almost all young males. Which can't possibly be true if you believe Israel is targeting, like, everyone:

http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-...an-casualties/

The demographic analysis of the fatalities in the Gaza conflict has limitations. It can’t identify who is or isn’t a combatant. But the spike in fatalities among males starting in their late teens and peaking in their early to mid-twenties, and the divergence of the pattern of fatalities from the demographic pattern of the population, raises considerable doubt about claims that as many as 75% or more of the fatalities are non-combatants. In light of evidence—provided by groups that monitor Arabic language media (like the Middle East Media Research Institute)—that Hamas has instructed Gazans to describe anyone killed as a civilian, journalists have a responsibility to convey this uncertainty to their audiences and not present figures provided by Hamas and Hamas-affiliated sources as unqualified fact.

Reported by an American non-Jew, if that's something you think is important.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Were you aware of this? The dying Gazans, they're almost all young males. Which can't possibly be true if you believe Israel is targeting, like, everyone:

http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-...an-casualties/

Reported by an American non-Jew, if that's something you think is important.

I read your link. I found no support for your statement anywhere. Could you explain why you came to that conclusion please?

***

This was from your link though:

Children, here defined as those under age 17, represented 194 of fatalities, 20% of the total. Any child fatality is a tragedy, but it is important to note that children make up over half the population of Gaza.

If I take your point that the Israelis are being specific and intentional, not "indiscriminate", how in the world can this be justified?

I take that back, suggesting that you justify the actions of the armed forces of a foreign country. That's unfair. But it is also wrong. I am struggling and failing to express my shock and disbelief at the inconsistency, the hypocrisy here. Asymmetrical warfare is a phrase that makes me want to wash my mouth with soap. "You kill one of mine, I kill twenty of yours." J.F.C.

I have lost a lot of respect for all sides in this conflict, those claiming to represent authority and responsibility for what's happening, but that loss is not equal. It is proportional to how much respect I had before this last conflagration. It is proportional to how much power they have. And Israel has lost most of my respect in this regard.

I hold them to a higher standard. They have more of everything in this conflict, and they have more responsibility, too. This whole fucking shitshow saddens and sickens me.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by BigV

I read your link. I found no support for your statement anywhere. Could you explain why you came to that conclusion please?

Yes, I read and evaluated a bunch of sources for that post but I worked hard to find the source furthest from Israel possible, as two Dwellars have mentioned they do not trust Israeli sources and I should think there are others who feel that way. Then that source (Time) didn't have the detail that those other sources had. So.

Here is a chart comparing the casualty demographics to the actual demographics of Gaza as of late July. You'll notice that young males are pretty much taking the brunt of it. Look at the age 20-24 category in particular. In that age group, women outnumber men by a ratio of 3 to 1. Yet 90% of the casualties in that age group are men. You will have to decide for yourself whether Dana's explanation for this discrepancy explains it. At the very least, it begs the question of why this would be the case if the IDF was bombing everything.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Yes, I read and evaluated a bunch of sources for that post but I worked hard to find the source furthest from Israel possible, as two Dwellars have mentioned they do not trust Israeli sources and I should think there are others who feel that way. Then that source (Time) didn't have the detail that those other sources had. So.

Here is a chart comparing the casualty demographics to the actual demographics of Gaza as of late July. You'll notice that young males are pretty much taking the brunt of it. Look at the age 20-24 category in particular. In that age group, women outnumber men by a ratio of 3 to 1. Yet 90% of the casualties in that age group are men. You will have to decide for yourself whether Dana's explanation for this discrepancy explains it. At the very least, it begs the question of why this would be the case if the IDF was bombing everything.

I read that page too, before I posted in the first place. Here's a link to a clearer graph. It's the source material for the blog post you quoted.



But I don't see anywhere that supports your claim that women outnumber men three to one. The data I've seen show the ratio to be practically one to one.

Most of the casualties are in the middle of the age range, but there's plenty of spillover into either end. If the bombs and guns and missiles used by Israel are .......

Let me restart.

I think it's clear from the body count on the Gazan side that Israel isn't being too careful who they hit--whatever the reason may be, sloppy, careless, accidental, aggressive, indiscriminate or intentional--whatever. There is no acceptable reason for 109 kids under the age of 10 to be killed. That makes me sick. That makes me sad.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by BigV

... There is no acceptable reason for 109 kids under the age of 10 to be killed. That makes me sick. That makes me sad. ...

But, but, it's a tradition BigV, handed down to us from your grandparents who supported the same kinds of activities in the past with their tax dollars. They also passed the practice on to the rest of the world. You still love them don't you? Your poo pooing the Israelis seems a little like the pot calling the kettle black: you must be the sensitive one in the family ...

NAPALM STICKS TO KIDS

We shoot the sick, the young, the lame
We do our best to kill and maim
Because the kills all count the same
Napalm sticks to kids

Flying low and feeling mean
See that family by the stream
Drop some napalm, hear them scream
Napalm sticks to kids

Flying low across the trees
Pilots doing what they please
Dropping frags on refugees
Napalm sticks to kids

See those farmers over there
Watch me get them with a pair
Blood and guts everywhere
Napalm sticks to kids

Gooks in the open making hay
But I hear the gunships say
There'll be no Chieu Hois today
Napalm sticks to kids

I've seen it happen only twice
But both times it was mighty nice
Shooting peasants planting rice
Napalm sticks to kids

Drop some H.E. on a farm
It won't do any harm
Just blows away their legs and arms
Napalm sticks to kids

There's a gook on his knees
Launch some flechettes into the breeze
Arms and legs nailed to trees
Napalm sticks to kids

Truck in a sampan sits in the stern
They don't think their bont will burn
Those fucking gooks will never learn
Napalm sticks to kids

A squad of Cong in the grass
But the fighting's long since past
Crispy critters in the mass
Napalm sticks to kids

Gooks down in a .50 pit
Baby sucking its mother's tits
Dow Chemical doesn't give a shit
Napalm sticks to kids

Shoot civilians where they sit
Take some pictures as you split
All your life you'll remember it
Napalm sticks to kids

Napalm, son, it's lots of fun
Dropped by bomb or shot from guns
It gets them all on the run
Napalm sticks to kids

They're in good shape, for the shape they're in
But here's no way that they can win
With napalm running down their chin
Napalm sticks to kids

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by BigV

Asymmetrical warfare is a phrase that makes me want to wash my mouth with soap. "You kill one of mine, I kill twenty of yours."

Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:

The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.

And Sparky, I respectfully ask you to avoid all the "saddens and sickens" kind of stuff. It can a different kind of conversation. I'm only asking.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:

The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.

And Sparky, I respectfully ask you to avoid all the "saddens and sickens" kind of stuff. It can a different kind of conversation. I'm only asking.

Well, Sparky, I think it's sad that Netanyahu resorts to sick fear-mongering, however euphonious and poetic-sounding.

What do make of this quote:

President George W. Bush, in an address to a joint session of Congress on September 20, 2001 said, "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

Same kind of divisive, war-accelerating, jingoism. The purpose of such a statement is not to convey truth, but to justify past and future aggression.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:

The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.

V didn't answer so I'll try to form one. Would the Arabs get their homeland if they put down their arms? Obviously not. Whoever disarms is dead. Each can only get a deal if they can prove they can kill the other at a level that is unacceptable. That's why the Arabs inside Palestine (for lack of a better label) will lose, they don't have the population or arms to hurt Israel enough to force a deal. The Arabs outside might but the Bush destabilization makes that an unreadable mess.