So the short fat Latino dude ...

[Lamplighter]

[ZenGum]

Is that why rims are so popular? Much harder to steal?

[sexobon]

Left.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

@Adak, this is a statement I have not heard before,
and have not been able to find via my Google searches.

What I have found are sequences of events that speak to phone calls
between Martin and his girl friend, both before and at the time of the shooting.

Attachment 44856

What I have also found is the following statement in this link,
and that agrees with what I had heard reported over the course of these events...

These seem to me to be significant enough to affect people's opinions about the jury finding.

Unfortunately, no.

That was reported by the media, immediately after the incident. Of course, I was interested in the case, and began perusing several media sources - on the net, and several radio stations, including KNX 1070 (a CBS Affiliate), out of Los Angeles, and a local FOX radio station, among others.

Then everything started changing:

The DA found nothing to charge Zimmerman with, after several hours of questioning, after the shooting, but in the wake of pressure from the community, a new prosecutor miraculously found Zimmerman should be charged with murder!

Martin's dad changed his opinion of the voice screaming for help on the 911 calls (to the dispatcher), but nobody could agree, even the "experts" and the FBI.

Some sources are saying Zimmerman changed his story as well. The witnesses changed theirs. Quite the mess.

I did find this, very interesting though:

Martin had been suspended from school at the time of his death.[22] He had been suspended twice before. One suspension was for tardiness and truancy.[23] Another suspension in October 2011 was for graffiti, when Martin was observed by a security camera in a restricted area of the school marking up a door with "W.T.F."[23]

When he was later searched by a Miami-Dade School Police Department officer, looking for the graffiti marker, the officer found several pieces of women's jewelry in his backpack, which Martin said a friend had given to him. A screwdriver was also found, which was described by the school police investigator as a burglary tool.

The jewelry was impounded and given to the police, but no evidence ever surfaced to indicate that the jewelry was stolen.[23] Martin's third suspension involved a marijuana pipe and an empty bag containing marijuana residue.[22] Martin was not charged with any crime related to these incidents and did not have a juvenile record.[24] Judge Nelson ruled that the defense may have access to Martin's records, including the details of these suspensions, as well as access to Martin's social media sites,[25] but ruled they will not be admissible as evidence during the trial unless they can be shown to be relevant.[26]

Also this:

Crimes committed at The Retreat (the name of the gated community, inside the larger Twin Lakes development apparently), in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting.[61] Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood.

Other burglaries by young black males in the recent past, in the community, and Zimmerman got a pistol (rather than a pepper sprayer), because he was advised to do so by Animal Control, after a vicious pit bull cornered his wife.

In the actual call to the PD, Zimmerman says Martin is approaching him, while he's still in his truck. "With his hands in his waistband".

You can hear the entire call to the PD (not a dispatcher on this call), and read all the above quoted info, on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

Zimmerman doesn't sound like a racist, to me. Listen for yourself. There's a ton of other info on this - what evidence was allowed at the trial, and what evidence was not allowed, and why.

Zimmerman's description of Martin "he's just walking around, looking into houses..."

does strike me as suspicious, in light of Martin's previous possession of several pieces of women's jewelry, and a screwdriver.

I have never heard of a teenage guy walking around, carrying several pieces of womens' jewelry, and a screwdriver.

That is a burglar.

Was he "casing" homes when Zimmerman found him? I have no idea. But he definitely was a burglar when he was caught earlier with the womens' jewelry and screwdriver.

Ask any cop.

Martin didn't deserve to be shot over a burglary, but it shows why Zimmerman wanted to confront Martin.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Hmm, jewelry and a screwdriver... must have been looking for the white women.

[regular.joe]

The kid got shot. I probobly would have been shot too, being stalked by some guy through the neighborhood.

[DanaC]

Pretty damn sure half the lads I know would have been shot. How many 17 year old lads wouldn't have a problem with being stalked and menaced?

Reverse the roles and everybody would be talking about how brave he was to confront his stalker, and how tragic that such bravery (or bravado - kid was 17 after all) cost him his life.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

The kid got shot. I probobly would have been shot too, being stalked by some guy through the neighborhood.

My job is not to die for my country; but, to give the enemy the maximum opportunity to die for his.

Superior tactical thinking is to apply that concept to any confrontation in conjunction with the concept in my reply to Dana below.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Pretty damn sure half the lads I know would have been shot. How many 17 year old lads wouldn't have a problem with being stalked and menaced?

Reverse the roles and everybody would be talking about how brave he was to confront his stalker, and how tragic that such bravery (or bravado - kid was 17 after all) cost him his life.

Discretion is the better part of valor.

It seems that half the lads you know had parents who failed to teach them not to be too stupid to live in that regard.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by sexobon

My job is not to die for my country; but, to give the enemy the maximum opportunity to die for his.

Superior tactical thinking is to apply that concept to any confrontation in conjunction with the concept in my reply to Dana below.



Discretion is the better part of valor.

It seems that half the lads you know had parents who failed to teach them not to be too stupid to live in that regard.

Right. Because 17 year olds are well known for their life experience and ability to foresee the consequences of their actions. And young lads are of course also well-known for having no bravado or pride.

He wasn't a soldier. He wasn't trained to fight another day. He was a kid who got followed and harassed by a grown man as he was innocently walking back from the shop with his sweets.


You seriously believe that this child brought his death upon himself? That the blame lies with him? That he was 'too stupid to live'?


I am disgusted by this attitude.


Discretion may be the better part of valor, but that's a lesson to be learned in life. You are an adult and therefore understand that lesson.

[tw]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I am disgusted by this attitude.

An attitude that extremists promote to encourage their supporters. Same extremists also said we want America to fail so that Obama will not be reelected. That 'blame the victim' attitude, inspired by Limbaugh and other extremists, was obvious and predictable. 'Blame the victim' accusations are posted by the usual suspects.

One even posts lies that Martin was in his girlfriend's house when he said he was going to get that guy. Extremist such as Limbaugh remain popular and rich because they preach such lies to inspire hate. Hate inspires their disciples. Their attitude and resulting 'blame Martin' posts were predictable.

[Undertoad]

Everybody on both sides has a narrative that they start with and MUST follow

- Most people decided on the correct narrative without having many facts. They put the story into their picture of the world so that it confirms their views. Their views on race, Florida's "stand your ground" gun laws, how cops behave, gated communities, how black teenagers behave, how juries work, etc. The story must fit into everyone's notions of these things. Even though it didn't happen in a gated community, "stand your ground" was not really relevant to the case, standard black teen behavior has nothing to do with anything at all here, etc.

- When the facts are not consistent with someone's narrative, those facts are ignored, or even changed. People actually rewrite the information so that it fits, and use colorful, emotional language that has nothing to do with the case.

- At some point, almost everyone's information about the case is basically wrong, because everyone they listen to has rewritten the facts to fit.

- For example, in the first 3 days following the event, we heard that "A black man was killed by a white man and the cops just let him go for no reason." This narrative was pushed early and often, and it should give people pause that this opening story was factually wrong and oversimplified. Already the facts are mangled in order to maximize outrage. Many people made up their mind at that point, and everything they've heard since then has been run through their narrative filtering, their opinion left unchanged.

[Griff]

Shhhh... Reason has no place in the politics of race, guns, or news cycles.

My take: We'll never know how it really went down, so I'll place my hopes in the trial by jury. A young man (not biologically a child, minor would be a less loaded term) is dead, that is a tragedy. A wrongful conviction would also be a tragedy. Sometimes people go free who shouldn't. Too few guilty imprisoned is a far better outcome than too many wrongfully convicted.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Griff

Sometimes people go free who shouldn't. Too few guilty imprisoned is a far better outcome than too many wrongfully convicted.

I completely agree with this.

I don't necessarily think that the guy should have been convicted of murder. Had the prosecution gone for a manslaughter charge they may have got a conviction, and that would probably have better reflected what actually happened.

What I find appalling is the notion, expressed by several people in this thread, that this kid brought about his own death. That he was 'too stupid to live'.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by DanaC

... What I find appalling is the notion, expressed by several people in this thread, that this kid brought about his own death. That he was 'too stupid to live'.

If you've read my previous posts, then you know I've said Zimmerman was the adult responsible for controlling that situation and he failed to live up to his responsibility. That Zimmerman killed Martin doesn't change the fact that Martin was too naïve (I did use the word naïve in a previous post) to act with the discretion necessary to save his own life. It's not an either - or situation and that you are appalled by anyone saying, in the vernacular, that Martin was too stupid to live reflects your home bred ignorance of reality in a country that sanctions private firearms ownership and carry.

We have another deadly implement here. Perhaps you've heard of it, it's called the automobile. We have people who learn to drive at an early age (16 y.o.), pass a test, then they're out on the street. Some learners and even experienced drivers also take a Defensive Driving Course in which they learn how to go out of their way to avoid collisions EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY! The purpose of that mindset is to save lives and prevent egregious bodily injury, especially to the young ones who may fall victim to the failings of older more experienced drivers.

The times they are a changing. All 50 states in the USA now have concealed carry laws. Whether it's guns or knives, legal or illegal, if parents aren't teaching their children that discretion is the better part of valor then THEY'VE FAILED AS MISERABLY AS ZIMMERMAN TO CONTROL A POTENTIALLY LETHAL SITUATION THAT MINORS MAY FACE.

I'm not a particularly religious man; but, at times like this I thank God that people like you and tw don't have children. They'd be no better off than Trayvon Martin.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by sexobon

I'm not a particularly religious man; but, at times like this I thank God that people like you and tw don't have children. They'd be no better off than Trayvon Martin.

Fuck you Sexobon, you arrogant piece of shit.


Done with this place.