Kid's sports - Revenge of the Coaches - Page 5

lookout123 · 06-17-2008, 04:03 PM

For the average family they don't even know there has been a shake up. they bring their kid to practice and games and that won't change. The rec league is pretty large and turning a pretty healthy profit. I've looked at the books. The only way to make more money is to extend the hours (they won't), build more fields (they can't), or charge more (they will), expend less (i think that is responsible for the lower quality in refs).

I expect the new guy to start a new club system, but i don't think he'll have enough time to do it before this year's competition starts. The season runs from Aug/Sept through May so he'd have a hard time getting tryout information disseminated fast enough. You never know though.

Our club team will exist as an outdoor entity only now. We already had lease agreements for outdoor fields and we'll keep using those. The club program isn't profitable enough for anyone to make a living on it yet, but it is self sustaining. In the last 24 hours it has been decided to launch spring and fall outdoor rec leagues as well. That should bring us another 500 kids registered during the year. That will bring in more money and grow the club significantly.

I, and a few others, are in the process of signing sponsorship agreements which will help the club with short term finances as well give me a little more business exposure.

Where there is a will there is a way. The phone calls and text messages have changed from panic and confusion to statements that whereever I land, the kids will follow. I've tied my anchor to the program we've built over the last four years. I will continue to coach and participate there. The only thing that is really questionable is if I still have any place at the old complex. We'll see. I don't want to burn bridges because it is the only really good adult program close by.

footfootfoot · 06-17-2008, 07:51 PM

Dude, You either must really really love coaching and soccer to put up with all that BS or else you are a masochist.

My blood pressure is up just reading that shit.

lookout123 · 06-18-2008, 01:35 PM

Met and spoke with most members of our informal core group of supporters last night. The general consensus is that anyone who was tied, even marginally, to the old club program is being ushered out the door, not be the investor/owner, but by the new GM who has dreams of starting a new club program. He obviously didn't believe he could recruit any of us (which is stupid) and wants all new bodies in there to recruit club kids for. Stupid stupid stupid.

Our program officially announced the new rec program which will start in the fall. Our club/competitive program is already in full swing. Non compete agreements prevent the former president from being a part of any new building/complex, but it has no impact on anyone else. Inquiries have come to us about interest as there are two investors who are interested in building a new complex if we will bring it all together. We've decided to investigate that but I won't do too much unless I've got some skin in the game. I will not help build another successful organization and see it yanked away by an investor who stayed at arm's length.

We shall see.

Flint · 06-18-2008, 01:39 PM

So, just recruit all new people with the snap of his fingers, will he? Hmmm... Seems like there might be a finite number of capable and motivated people within a geographic area?

lookout123 · 06-18-2008, 01:45 PM

Not if you stroke the parent's ego and tell them their kid is ready for club level competition. Parents want to believe it so it isn't hard to get them going. He has already shown that the kids aren't his primary concern, so what if they aren't ready as long as he gets $$$?

Flint · 06-18-2008, 02:54 PM

I meant a whole new staff of coaches etc.

Wouldn't all parties interested in that position, within a given area, already be doing it, i.e. the guys he's firing?

lookout123 · 06-18-2008, 03:22 PM

As much as I'd like to believe so, the truth is no. There are a handful of guys that have blown out of there over the last couple of years over differences in philosophy. Some of them have popped back up recently so I would expect them to step in. Some coaches might move over from other clubs. Some dads will step up and coach their kids' teams. He'd be able to get the rec league pulled together very quickly.

The club program is a different case, but it wouldn't be that hard either. He would serve as director and get some of his better rec coaches to work as assistants. A couple coaches that are with our program now might be swayed if they saw better income, responsibility, etc. He'd get college kids as interns to work as trainers. Without judging quality, the actual job of getting people really isn't that hard. Getting loyal people though? Very difficult. You have to remember that for a lot of these men and women coaching is their job not necessarily a passionate hobby.

In all honesty with $3,000,000 in backing (which is what he has right now) I have absolutely no doubt that I could turn our current club into the premier club in the state. He should have no problem putting a new one together that will be competitive within just a couple years.

Flint · 06-18-2008, 03:27 PM

The whole thing should be strictly non-profit, volunteer work. Involving children in a business that way seems obscene. The word exploitation comes to mind.

lookout123 · 06-18-2008, 03:29 PM

I don't mind it being a for profit organization (although ours is a non-profit) if the kids are put first. Professional coaching can be viewed as a product if it isn't your passion.

Most rec programs are volunteer. Some are done well, some aren't. Quality control can be maintained better if the coaches are paid though. Not that they are paid much, just that they get something. Strangely enough, it is easier to dismiss someone you are paying than it is to dismiss a volunteer.

Flint · 06-18-2008, 03:32 PM

If someone is looking to "make money" I think that this is the wrong business for them. Of course, it's a product that people want, so it's inevitable that the market will treat it as a way to make money.

lookout123 · 06-18-2008, 03:37 PM

I'll disagree there. I have a career that takes care of my needs. While it's a job I enjoy, it doesn't fill me with passion. I'm cool with that because I'm a work to play kind of guy. Some people need to be passionate about their jobs and they are willing to earn less money in exchange for that. Coaching club soccer will make no one rich. Most of the coaches make less than $2000/year. A couple make $5-10,000. When the club is successful in full swing the top guys might make $50-70K but that is about it. Unless they are coaching for a large school or university it isn't a path to riches. But some coaches put a lot of time and effort into the job and they should be compensated otherwise they may not be able to do so.

example: I don't accept pay because of my licenses, but the coaches who coach at the level I do at the lowest base pay earn $250-400 every 10 weeks for that. 5 sessions per year = $2000 at the high end. If they coach 5 teams at a time that is $10,000/year. If they do private coach at $30/hr they might pull in a couple thousand more, but they certainly aren't getting rich. Most guys who are trying to live off it are either full time staff at a large club or work for a school as well. These guys are doing it for love of the game and kids.

Let's look at a breakdown of the costs:

A kid who is on the club team from Aug until May will pay $825 in training fees. That will give them 3.5 hours practice per week and at least one game every weekend. They will also pay $400 for state registration and uniform costs (no profit there). They will also pay tournament costs (divided amongst players with no padding for profit).

On a team with 10 kids count on at least one of them receiving a fee scholarship, so let's count just 9 paying kids to bring us to $7,425. If the club has 20 teams in operaton then you've got $148,500 in training fee income during the year. Sounds great.

Then you subtract:
Field rental agreements. Last night we had 6 teams practicing on one field for 2 hours at $130/hour. That means to practice all 20 teams for 3.5 hours each week we need 10.5 hours of field time for a weekly cost of $1365. Figure 40 weeks for a total of $54K+

League fees: They have games each week where you have to pay the refs $10 x 2, plus the league for the field and admin average of $40 per game. So $60 x 20 games = $1200 per week x 40 weeks = $48,000

Equipment costs: Balls = avg $4.50, Nets $50, cones $10 for 10, etc. So if we say $15 in equipment for each kid during the year that is another $3000 conservatively.

Just those areas run out to a little over $100K before we get to advertising, insurance, wages, etc.

It really isn't going to make anyone rich in the short term. A club director could do well if committed and willing to work hard enough to build a club of 50-70 teams but that really is a lot of work that takes them away from the kids so most guys never go that far.

Just a little peak behind the curtain.

Flint · 06-18-2008, 03:39 PM

When I said "make money" I didn't mean $2000.

I meant, dream about huge piles of cash that you will be making by firing everybody that actually cares about doing something right, then hiring a bunch of career douchebags, and scamming unsuspecting parents into signing up; so that the kids (the reason for the whole thing?) get a raw deal--a coach that doesn't give a rat's ass about them.

Clodfobble · 06-18-2008, 03:42 PM

I gotta say though, $1500-$7000 per year per kid? That blows my mind. The little local soccer team my friend's kid did was like $60, and that included the uniform and a cheesy little trophy for everyone at the end of the season.

lookout123 · 06-18-2008, 04:06 PM

That's a rec program clodfobble. Our rec program was $89 but it was on an indoor a/c field so worth the extra cost to most parents. That's what 90% of the kids who play will do and that's as it should be. Learn the basics, play some games, have some fun, get a trophy and on to the next round.

Club soccer is whole step up. Kids who go through the club system usually end up with college scholarships and some move on to the pros.

Think about the difference between all the little girls who went to gymnastics practice every week and learned to do some flips, vs the girls we'll be watching at the olympics in a couple weeks. They went to a gymnastics club program and spent a lot more time, money, and effort to get there.

Clodfobble · 06-18-2008, 04:39 PM

Oh okay, I thought you were saying your rec program was the $1500 end of that spectrum, while the club was the $7000.

06-17-2008, 04:03 PM	#1
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	For the average family they don't even know there has been a shake up. they bring their kid to practice and games and that won't change. The rec league is pretty large and turning a pretty healthy profit. I've looked at the books. The only way to make more money is to extend the hours (they won't), build more fields (they can't), or charge more (they will), expend less (i think that is responsible for the lower quality in refs). I expect the new guy to start a new club system, but i don't think he'll have enough time to do it before this year's competition starts. The season runs from Aug/Sept through May so he'd have a hard time getting tryout information disseminated fast enough. You never know though. Our club team will exist as an outdoor entity only now. We already had lease agreements for outdoor fields and we'll keep using those. The club program isn't profitable enough for anyone to make a living on it yet, but it is self sustaining. In the last 24 hours it has been decided to launch spring and fall outdoor rec leagues as well. That should bring us another 500 kids registered during the year. That will bring in more money and grow the club significantly. I, and a few others, are in the process of signing sponsorship agreements which will help the club with short term finances as well give me a little more business exposure. Where there is a will there is a way. The phone calls and text messages have changed from panic and confusion to statements that whereever I land, the kids will follow. I've tied my anchor to the program we've built over the last four years. I will continue to coach and participate there. The only thing that is really questionable is if I still have any place at the old complex. We'll see. I don't want to burn bridges because it is the only really good adult program close by. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

06-17-2008, 07:51 PM	#2
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	Dude, You either must really really love coaching and soccer to put up with all that BS or else you are a masochist. My blood pressure is up just reading that shit. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

06-18-2008, 01:35 PM	#3
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	Met and spoke with most members of our informal core group of supporters last night. The general consensus is that anyone who was tied, even marginally, to the old club program is being ushered out the door, not be the investor/owner, but by the new GM who has dreams of starting a new club program. He obviously didn't believe he could recruit any of us (which is stupid) and wants all new bodies in there to recruit club kids for. Stupid stupid stupid. Our program officially announced the new rec program which will start in the fall. Our club/competitive program is already in full swing. Non compete agreements prevent the former president from being a part of any new building/complex, but it has no impact on anyone else. Inquiries have come to us about interest as there are two investors who are interested in building a new complex if we will bring it all together. We've decided to investigate that but I won't do too much unless I've got some skin in the game. I will not help build another successful organization and see it yanked away by an investor who stayed at arm's length. We shall see. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

06-18-2008, 01:39 PM	#4
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	So, just recruit all new people with the snap of his fingers, will he? Hmmm... Seems like there might be a finite number of capable and motivated people within a geographic area? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

06-18-2008, 01:45 PM	#5
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	Not if you stroke the parent's ego and tell them their kid is ready for club level competition. Parents want to believe it so it isn't hard to get them going. He has already shown that the kids aren't his primary concern, so what if they aren't ready as long as he gets $$$? __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

06-18-2008, 02:54 PM	#6
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I meant a whole new staff of coaches etc. Wouldn't all parties interested in that position, within a given area, already be doing it, i.e. the guys he's firing? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

06-18-2008, 03:22 PM	#7
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	As much as I'd like to believe so, the truth is no. There are a handful of guys that have blown out of there over the last couple of years over differences in philosophy. Some of them have popped back up recently so I would expect them to step in. Some coaches might move over from other clubs. Some dads will step up and coach their kids' teams. He'd be able to get the rec league pulled together very quickly. The club program is a different case, but it wouldn't be that hard either. He would serve as director and get some of his better rec coaches to work as assistants. A couple coaches that are with our program now might be swayed if they saw better income, responsibility, etc. He'd get college kids as interns to work as trainers. Without judging quality, the actual job of getting people really isn't that hard. Getting loyal people though? Very difficult. You have to remember that for a lot of these men and women coaching is their job not necessarily a passionate hobby. In all honesty with $3,000,000 in backing (which is what he has right now) I have absolutely no doubt that I could turn our current club into the premier club in the state. He should have no problem putting a new one together that will be competitive within just a couple years. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

06-18-2008, 03:27 PM	#8
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	The whole thing should be strictly non-profit, volunteer work. Involving children in a business that way seems obscene. The word exploitation comes to mind. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

06-18-2008, 03:29 PM	#9
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	I don't mind it being a for profit organization (although ours is a non-profit) if the kids are put first. Professional coaching can be viewed as a product if it isn't your passion. Most rec programs are volunteer. Some are done well, some aren't. Quality control can be maintained better if the coaches are paid though. Not that they are paid much, just that they get something. Strangely enough, it is easier to dismiss someone you are paying than it is to dismiss a volunteer. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

06-18-2008, 03:32 PM	#10
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	If someone is looking to "make money" I think that this is the wrong business for them. Of course, it's a product that people want, so it's inevitable that the market will treat it as a way to make money. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

06-18-2008, 03:37 PM	#11
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	I'll disagree there. I have a career that takes care of my needs. While it's a job I enjoy, it doesn't fill me with passion. I'm cool with that because I'm a work to play kind of guy. Some people need to be passionate about their jobs and they are willing to earn less money in exchange for that. Coaching club soccer will make no one rich. Most of the coaches make less than $2000/year. A couple make $5-10,000. When the club is successful in full swing the top guys might make $50-70K but that is about it. Unless they are coaching for a large school or university it isn't a path to riches. But some coaches put a lot of time and effort into the job and they should be compensated otherwise they may not be able to do so. example: I don't accept pay because of my licenses, but the coaches who coach at the level I do at the lowest base pay earn $250-400 every 10 weeks for that. 5 sessions per year = $2000 at the high end. If they coach 5 teams at a time that is $10,000/year. If they do private coach at $30/hr they might pull in a couple thousand more, but they certainly aren't getting rich. Most guys who are trying to live off it are either full time staff at a large club or work for a school as well. These guys are doing it for love of the game and kids. Let's look at a breakdown of the costs: A kid who is on the club team from Aug until May will pay $825 in training fees. That will give them 3.5 hours practice per week and at least one game every weekend. They will also pay $400 for state registration and uniform costs (no profit there). They will also pay tournament costs (divided amongst players with no padding for profit). On a team with 10 kids count on at least one of them receiving a fee scholarship, so let's count just 9 paying kids to bring us to $7,425. If the club has 20 teams in operaton then you've got $148,500 in training fee income during the year. Sounds great. Then you subtract: Field rental agreements. Last night we had 6 teams practicing on one field for 2 hours at $130/hour. That means to practice all 20 teams for 3.5 hours each week we need 10.5 hours of field time for a weekly cost of $1365. Figure 40 weeks for a total of $54K+ League fees: They have games each week where you have to pay the refs $10 x 2, plus the league for the field and admin average of $40 per game. So $60 x 20 games = $1200 per week x 40 weeks = $48,000 Equipment costs: Balls = avg $4.50, Nets $50, cones $10 for 10, etc. So if we say $15 in equipment for each kid during the year that is another $3000 conservatively. Just those areas run out to a little over $100K before we get to advertising, insurance, wages, etc. It really isn't going to make anyone rich in the short term. A club director could do well if committed and willing to work hard enough to build a club of 50-70 teams but that really is a lot of work that takes them away from the kids so most guys never go that far. Just a little peak behind the curtain. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin Last edited by lookout123; 06-18-2008 at 04:00 PM.

06-18-2008, 03:39 PM	#12
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	When I said "make money" I didn't mean $2000. I meant, dream about huge piles of cash that you will be making by firing everybody that actually cares about doing something right, then hiring a bunch of career douchebags, and scamming unsuspecting parents into signing up; so that the kids (the reason for the whole thing?) get a raw deal--a coach that doesn't give a rat's ass about them. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

06-18-2008, 03:42 PM	#13
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	I gotta say though, $1500-$7000 per year per kid? That blows my mind. The little local soccer team my friend's kid did was like $60, and that included the uniform and a cheesy little trophy for everyone at the end of the season.

06-18-2008, 04:06 PM	#14
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	That's a rec program clodfobble. Our rec program was $89 but it was on an indoor a/c field so worth the extra cost to most parents. That's what 90% of the kids who play will do and that's as it should be. Learn the basics, play some games, have some fun, get a trophy and on to the next round. Club soccer is whole step up. Kids who go through the club system usually end up with college scholarships and some move on to the pros. Think about the difference between all the little girls who went to gymnastics practice every week and learned to do some flips, vs the girls we'll be watching at the olympics in a couple weeks. They went to a gymnastics club program and spent a lot more time, money, and effort to get there. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

06-18-2008, 04:39 PM	#15
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Oh okay, I thought you were saying your rec program was the $1500 end of that spectrum, while the club was the $7000.

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