Roadside Memorials, Utah fight

The very first thing our government states is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".
Yeah, that's not clear.


In Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, an agreement signed between the United States and the Muslim region of North Africa in 1797 after negotiations concluded by George Washington (the document, which was approved by the Senate, manyh of whom were founding fathers at the time, in accordance with Constitutional law, and then signed by John Adams), it states flatly, "The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." signed by John Adams
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" John Adams

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law" -Thomas Jefferson

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"
John Adams April 27,1797

“The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine.”
–George Washington
.
“It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
–Thomas Jefferson
.
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."
–Thomas Paine
.
“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
–Thomas Jefferson
.
“The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.”
–Abraham Lincoln

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." -James Madison

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; -Benjamin Franklin

The words "one nation under God" were not added to the Pledge of allegiance until 1953

The words "in God we trust were not consistently added to all money until the 1950s after the McCarthy Era

None of the 85 Federalist Papers written in support of the Constitution reference God, the Bible, religion or Christianity.

James Madison, Jefferson's close friend and political ally, was just as vigorously opposed to religious intrusions into civil affairs as Jefferson was. In 1785, when the Commonwealth of Virginia was considering passage of a bill "establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," Madison wrote his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" in which he presented fifteen reasons why government should not be come involved in the support of any religion.
The views of Madison and Jefferson prevailed in the Virginia Assembly

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries"
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -James Madison fourth president and father of the Constitution

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From: Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words

Jesus even said it:
Mark 12:17
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Matthew 22:21
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Luke 20:25
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion." -Thomas Paine

The Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791
“Censorship reflects a society’s lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime . . . .” - Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, dissenting Ginzberg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463 (1966)

“The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.” - Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

“Almost all human beings have an infinite capacity for taking things for granted.” - Aldous Huxley, author of Brave New World

“Men feared witches and burnt women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears.” - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis (1856-1941), Whitney v. California, 274 U. S. 357 (1927)

“If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person
were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified
in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would
be justified in silencing mankind.”- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard
even his enemy from opposition: for if he violates this duty he
establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. ”- Thomas Paine,
Dissertation On First Principles Of Government

Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

“God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.”
-- Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith on Nov. 13, 1787. The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955).

"What wrong can there be in telling a downright good lie for a good cause and the advancement of the Christian Church?" --Martin Luther

"If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
George Washington
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Author: Voltaire 1694-1778,
French Historian, Writer.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
Author: Noam Chomsky 1928-,Great American Linguist and Philosopher.

[lookout123]

wipe your mouth, there's still a little puke left in the corner.

i didn't say this was a christian nation. or a nation of christians. or jews. or muslims. so most of those quotes don't really help to answer the question i asked. please try again.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by lookout123

... complete eradication of any signs of religion in the public eye? no? weird.

By "in the public eye" do you mean "established by the government"? As far as I've seen, rkzenrage has only called the latter unconstitutional. The former is up to the private entity who owns the property which may be in the public eye. He (and I) may be happy when such an entity discontinues a policy based on the assumption that everyone is Christian, but that is a different issue from Constitutionality.

[lookout123]

for the record, i do not want the government involved in my faith. i also don't believe that my faith should be thrust upon you via a government entity.

that being said i've heard that having a cross with an officer's name on it is a breach of "the separation of church and state". i asked what part of the constitution or amendments specifically points out this "separation", once that part is found please explain how a cross that is not paid for or maintained with tax dollars breaches the separation.

i think the crosses are tacky and overdone so i'm not a big fan of them, but how do we get from point A) a family or group of families expresses their grief by putting up a memorial cross on the side of the road, to Point B) The US government is endorsing the Christian faith as the one true faith?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by lookout123

please explain how a cross that is not paid for or maintained with tax dollars breaches the separation.

In the case of the particular cross in Utah that started this thread, it is in fact paid for and maintained with tax dollars. But you're right, your average roadside cross is not.

[classicman]

But those average roadside crosses are typically on public land and thats what rk was bitchin about. Well that was one thing anyway.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Not in PA. I own, and pay taxes on, the land to the center of the road. The government has an easement to use part of my land for public right-of-way, but I still own it.

[classicman]

So you, the land owner, can put a memorial on it?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Sure, as long as the government doesn't deem it a hazard to their right-of-way use. I also have local ordinance considerations, like signage in residential neighborhoods, etc, etc.

[classicman]

Thanks - that's what I thought.

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

By "in the public eye" do you mean "established by the government"? As far as I've seen, rkzenrage has only called the latter unconstitutional. The former is up to the private entity who owns the property which may be in the public eye. He (and I) may be happy when such an entity discontinues a policy based on the assumption that everyone is Christian, but that is a different issue from Constitutionality.

Public eye? I never mentioned that in any way. I don't care what anyone does on private land with private funds. (though I do agree with signage laws)

[Aliantha]

I suppose if people have a right to put up memorials, you also have a right to take them down if they're on public land.

Well said Ali.

[classicman]

Ohh that is an interesting thought to ponder, Ali. I wonder who owns them once they are ... erected.

[Aliantha]

I guess whoever put the erection there actually owns the erection. There's always something or someone who can spoil a good erection though.