If you outlaw guns, then only....

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Pangloss, you, by your philosophy of life and antigun sentiments, are incapable of resisting genocide, to effect. You may open your mouth to deplore it, but that won't keep you out of the "shower." I'm sure lots of Jews (and Christian Scientists and Gypsies) hollered "No, don't do this!" even louder than you would.

How many live now?

Contrariwise, MaggieL and I, for two, are the ones who by the mere act of owning guns keep you safe from genocide (remember genocide sneaks up on its victims -- starts with a con-job, ends in an Auschwitz). Now why, exactly, should it be only we two to bear that load? You can do your share by attaining skill with firearms and other killing tools, Pangloss.

Pacifism or passivism makes you dead. We resent like hell the prospect of being dragged down to Gehenna with you! When it comes to stopping the Einsatzkommandos, for the avoidable hatreds that set them up were already present, and a basic emotion like hatred will always be among humans, there's nothing like a 7.92mm Mauser slug transecting the brain for doing the stopping -- and justice also, no?

The JPFO's argument that gun control (air quotes if you like, as "control" always takes the form of some sort of actual ban) is the handmaiden of episodes of genocide, sometimes taking decades before the slaughter happens (viz., Cambodia) has never been refuted or rebutted. The idea's been in the public arena for a dozen years now, and no counterargument has ever been put forth.

Before you try and dismiss me as some insensitive crank, consider that I am a decent man who is offended by pogroms. And I can help make one into a fizzle. What's your story? Can you actually claim to have a moral position? If you can't kill a State's barbarians, no you cannot.

[Ibby]

I've considered that you were a decent man before, but not for very long.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Ok, gun control aside, would there be fewer deaths in America if there were no handguns? Simple question: only Yes or No answers accepted.

My answer: Yes.

Where Spexx errs here is that he thinks all deaths are equivalent: he is setting an Amish junior high schooler's death at the same value as Charles Carl Robert's death. He forgets: one was innocent. It is moral to value innocent life over that of the perp.

With defensive, proper, non-police uses of guns, and these are mostly of handguns because of their portability (a long arm you bear, a pistol you wear) running at about two and a half million annually -- mostly without a shot being fired -- Spexx's views are dangerously behind the curve and can get Spexx or his loved ones killed much more easily than, say, my views on the matter.

There is a LOT here that you simply don't know, Spexx. I can recommend you a reading list that will at least allow you to speak intelligently.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Ibram

I've considered that you were a decent man before, but all evidence argues against.

Ibbie, that you've developed an ego-driven teenager's dislike of me does not exactly erode my decency! LOL.

(I seem to have grabbed your post for quoting before you edited it. There may be illumination in comparing first and second drafts.)

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Ok, gun control aside, would there be fewer deaths in America if there were no handguns? Simple question: only Yes or No answers accepted.

My answer: Yes.

My answer: No.

Your bathtub is more dangerous than my handgun.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

And there's another conflict. You have voiced opposition to taxes in the past. Who pays for the prisons, guards, etc? Since these guys surely shouldn't be allowed back on the streets ever ( ) the cost will be staggering, not to mention the space that'll be needed to contain these people. Got a solution to that?

I'm not opposed to all taxes. But one problem here is that too much of the taxes collected in Philadelphia are spent on the Mayor's cronys and other bullshit rather than on enforcing the law.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by glatt

So there is an excuse you would be willing to be disarmed on?

No.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Ibbie, that you've developed an ego-driven teenager's dislike of me does not exactly erode my decency! LOL.

(I seem to have grabbed your post for quoting before you edited it. There may be illumination in comparing first and second drafts.)

Hey, same meaning, I just edited it cause the second sounds better.

And this isnt ego-driven, it's hatred-driven. Youre a genuinely bad person.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

I noticed that hoplophobia, which I at first thought was the fear of rabbits, is not recognized in the DSM.

Yes, and homosexuality used to be *in* the DSM. Stuff goes in and out of the DSM for political reasons all the time.

I vote for someone to give Ibram a gun to shoot UG!

[wolf]

Originally Posted by marichiko

I vote for someone to give Ibram a gun to shoot UG!

Inciting another, especially an impressionable juvenile, to violence shows a lack of moral fiber and ethical responsibility on your part, Mari, not that I'm surprised.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Ok, gun control aside, would there be fewer deaths in America if there were no handguns? Simple question: only Yes or No answers accepted.

You don't get to control the discussion. Who do you think you are, tw?

Do you understand that most legal defensive uses of firearms--about three-quarters of them--don't involve actually firing the weapon, but simply being willing to do so? When we include cases where only a warning shot was fired, the rate rises to 92%.

That's the major fallacy of the "guns have no purpose besides killing" crowd. Of course, those cases are almost never reported by the media, and are often not reported to the cops. Legal defensive use of firearms involving discharging the weapon is seriously unreported in the media as well.

[MaggieL]

Oh..by the way:

Originally Posted by Guess Who?

When we got organized as a country, we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans. There’s too much personal freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

That's the major fallacy of the "guns have no purpose besides killing" crowd.

Exactly. Let's not forget pistol whipping.

[xoxoxoBruce]

This is my pistol
This is my gun
One is for whipping
One is for shooting bullets.