So, there's this girl I like............

[9th Engineer]

Hence the jaded attitude in the the Guy A story. The essay is what we all want to believe, but in all but the rarest of cases it's only fantasy.

[yesman065]

I, if this is possible, am speechless. That is all of me put into a few paragraphs.

[Sundae]

What?
I am friends with Nice Guys. They don't act like that towards me - we have give and take relationships.

Man - I endure hours of whining and bitching about what assholes guys are...
Me - Really? How boring, when I witter on about my nemesis in the office my friends tell me to shut it

Man - I always provide a shoulder to lean on but restrain myself to tentative hugs
Me - Are you saying that being there for a friend entitles you to a shag?

Man- I hold open doors and give reassuring pats on the back and sit patiently outside the changing room at department stores
Me - And? Does she ask you to? If not stop doing it. Oh and I don't necessarily need to hear a breakdown of the Match for 90 minutes after it finishes, but if I'm out with a friend I'll go along with it. If she doesn't, drop her.

Man- I obligingly reiterate how cute/beautiful/smart/funny/sexy my female friends are at the appropriate moment, because I know most girls need that litany of support
Me - If you don't like doing it, stop it. If you do stop using words like Obligingly and Litany. Some of your female friends probably don't realise you're not being sincere.

Man - She left 40 urgent messages on my cell phone, and when I called her back, she spent three hours painstakingly dissecting two sentences her boyfriend said to her over dinner.
Me - You plum. That's not a friend that a needy disaster
Man - Even though I thought her boyfriend was a chump and a jerk, I assured her that it was all ok and she shouldn’t worry about it.
Me - Blimey, you're not a very good friend are you. Hope she doesn't end up with a black eye at some point.

Man - She interrupted the best killing spree I’d ever orchestrated in GTA3 to rant about a rumor that romantically linked her and the guy she thinks is the most repulsive person in the world.
Me - If it was that big a deal for you, you should have told her you'd call her back
Man - And even though I thought it was immature and I had nothing against the guy, I paused the game for two hours and helped her concoct a counter-rumor to spread around the floor.
Me - Hang on, Nice Guy? Nice Guy? You're either spineless or spiteful if you do this just on her say-so.

Man - She didn’t have a date, so after numerous vows that there was nothing “serious” between the two of us, she dragged me to a party where I knew nobody, the beer was awful, and she flirted shamelessly with me, justifying each fit of reckless teasing by announcing to everyone: “oh, but we’re just friends!”
Me - Why did you stick with her? Blimey - last time I dragged a friend to a party he got drunk & copped off & I got stuck paying for the whole fare home by myself! I forgave him though - he's a friend.

Man - the only conclusion I can form is that many girls are just illogical, manipulative bitches
Me - I beginning to think I don't want to be friends with you

Man - the world needs my patience in the department store
Me - and mine at the pool table - do I whine about it?
Man - my holding open of doors
Me - Again with the doors! I do that for other people too, you'd have to be really rude to let the door slam in someone's face
Man - My party escorting services
Me - Like I'd let a friend go to a party alone either
Man- my propensity to be a sucker for a pretty smile
Me - Ah... Now we get to the crux of the matter. This female friend isn't a friend like I am. This "friend" is hot
Man - I tolerate all the crazy, inane, absurd things, I am the faceless, nameless hero, I want accolades, acknowledgement, and gratitude

Yes, you do don't you?

You don't deserve it.
If a male friend treated you like that you would delete their number from your phone. If an ugly female friend treated you like that you'd drop her like a hot coal.

You have set yourself up to be walked all over because you want sex with someone who doesn't want sex with you

And you think this makes you special.
And I bet you are making some sad mousy girl's life a misery whining about your goddess to her as well (only she has to go home and kick the cat)

NICE is as NICE does. Don't stay friends with users and you won't be used.

If any of my male friends were also "friends" with a woman like that I'd twat them over the head and ask them what on earth they were doing?

I'd say, "I know she makes you feel manly by being so needy, but you so don't need a friend like that! What's that? Oh you fancy her. Why? You don't seem to have anything in common..... Oh, she's hot. Right. Well what can I say, mate, you get what you signed up for."

[Sundae]

Just to reitereate - I am responding to the piece quoted by 9th Engineer, I'm not directing that at anyone posting.

Just got off of the phone with my niece where I stated "just tell him the truth... what you honestly feel with no tricky language or things for him to have to figure out" six times. Finally, I figured out that she wanted a script... she is twenty-five and a very smart lady... in most ways. She has not seriously dated much.

[maninthebox]

You know, there is a few nice guys out there that does nice things just to be nice. I do nice things for people because that's how I want to be treated, unless they're an asshole first. When I'm nice to women, I really don't expect anything in return. I may have come across that way. 9th Engineer's post may have come aross the wrong way too. Some guys like to do nice things for women, but really don't have the intention of getting laid. I've helped many friends before and they turn thier back on you later like you never existed. I think that was the whole point of the Ode. Well, at least that's the way it came across to me.

[mrnoodle]

Women want to sleep with men. They want to hang out with women. If you are the sexless, safe shopping buddy, it's because you're pretending to be a woman in order to make her feel comfortable. Whether or not you're trying to sleep with her is a separate issue.

The fact is, if you are "best friends" with most women, it's either because you have turned into enough of a chick that she doesn't see you as male, or she enjoys the schadenfreude of walking around in your cloud of pheromones pretending not to notice. There are occasions where other psychological factors come into play, e.g., one or the other acts as a parent figure or is gay, but not usually.

The physical attractiveness of the players doesn't matter. "Best friend" types tend to be similar to one another, and sexual attraction is bound to be tied up in there somewhere, even if it has been buried for the sake of "saving the friendship".

Women, stop pretending that you are surprised to discover that your male friend is not, in fact, a woman in disguise. Men, stop the madness. If you set yourself up to be a genderless drone to get closer to a woman you like, you are lying to yourself and her.

Men and women are programmed to bump uglies with each other, and this utopian idea that we can shut off that urge and all be one big happy ball of platonic oneness is absurd.

No, I haven't dated in awhile. Why do you ask?

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Women want to sleep with men. They want to hang out with women. If you are the sexless, safe shopping buddy, it's because you're pretending to be a woman in order to make her feel comfortable. Whether or not you're trying to sleep with her is a separate issue.

The fact is, if you are "best friends" with most women, it's either because you have turned into enough of a chick that she doesn't see you as male, or she enjoys the schadenfreude of walking around in your cloud of pheromones pretending not to notice. There are occasions where other psychological factors come into play, e.g., one or the other acts as a parent figure or is gay, but not usually.

The physical attractiveness of the players doesn't matter. "Best friend" types tend to be similar to one another, and sexual attraction is bound to be tied up in there somewhere, even if it has been buried for the sake of "saving the friendship".

Women, stop pretending that you are surprised to discover that your male friend is not, in fact, a woman in disguise. Men, stop the madness. If you set yourself up to be a genderless drone to get closer to a woman you like, you are lying to yourself and her.

Men and women are programmed to bump uglies with each other, and this utopian idea that we can shut off that urge and all be one big happy ball of platonic oneness is absurd.

No, I haven't dated in awhile. Why do you ask?

I happen to like to shop.
I happen not to have tried to fuck every women I am attracted to every chance I got because if they were fun to hang-out with, that can be cool as well.
I am a man and always have been. The women in my life have always been very satisfied and the current one still is.
I also got laid plenty... when I realized a chick was putting me in the "nice guy" role, that I liked, I called her on it. We became friends or I stopped seeing her... but the game stopped.
Men who think that "this" is manly and "that" is not... need therapy.
I have several women who are friends... men who cannot be friends with a women... need therapy.
If you can't compromise and shop (or anything else) with her while she does things you like to do, don't bitch when your relationship goes in the crapper.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I happen to like to shop.
I happen not to have tried to fuck every women I am attracted to every chance I got because if they were fun to hang-out with, that can be cool as well.
I am a man and always have been. The women in my life have always been very satisfied and the current one still is.
I also got laid plenty... when I realized a chick was putting me in the "nice guy" role, that I liked, I called her on it. We became friends or I stopped seeing her... but the game stopped.
Men who think that "this" is manly and "that" is not... need therapy.
I have several women who are friends... men who cannot be friends with a women... need therapy.
If you can't compromise and shop (or anything else) with her while she does things you like to do, don't bitch when your relationship goes in the crapper.

YES! A man who gets where women are coming from. Even if you posted in response to MrNoodle. You are the type of man I am friends with.

[9th Engineer]

Sundae Girl, you have a very similar personality to my mother. Her personality puts her at odds with most other women however, for example she hates gossip with a passion (and any conversation longer than two sentences about someone not present is probably going to be gossip). She is extremely direct and to the point, with no real tollerance for emotionalism. Just out of curiosity, do you get along better in general with men than other women? You sound like you probably would.

[Sundae]

In general - yes. I get on better with men than women if you look at my long term friend ratio. But I stand by my claim that I see a person first rather than a gender.

I have very strong bonds with the female friends I have made. And we're all "Real Women". We might not necessarily respond to emails about puppies and babies and chocolate. But we cry at adverts and books and over-analyse and confuse our partners just like everyone else.

I appreciate the difference between the genders. I just wish people would look deeper. Girly-girls can still get pissed and dance on tables. Proper Lads can still cry at a wedding. And both sexes can be arseholes or doormats.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I also got laid plenty... when I realized a chick was putting me in the "nice guy" role, that I liked, I called her on it. We became friends or I stopped seeing her... but the game stopped.

Asserting yourself in this way is a masculine thing to do. "I called her on it" is most definitely a male concept. The female version is "I asked her to please respect my feelings."

Men who think that "this" is manly and "that" is not... need therapy.

Men who have had "therapy" inflicted upon them can easily be identified by their claim that there is no difference between masculinity and femininity.

Shopping's fine, btw. I was just using it as the archetypical "girl" activity, like football is the "guy" thing. I happen to hate watching sports on TV, and can't even feign interest when people talk about them. That's not the point. The activity's boyishness or girlishness isn't defined by the activity itself, it's defined by how the people act while doing it, and the attitudes and moods they display.

You don't need a degree in psychology to tell when someone is acting like a girl/boy. Unfortunately, we've had enough "therapy" rammed down our throats in the last 40 years or so to make us feel guilty for noticing the difference. Women's magazines would have us believe that the ideal man is psychologically female, but able to move heavy objects.

I call BS. We think we're so enlightened -- we make fun of girls for being too frilly, make fun of guys for being too testosterone-filled, but at the end of the day, those very traits are what keep most of us interested in the other side.

(Your dad might collect lace doilies, and your mom might swing a sledgehammer at the construction site. Yay for them. I'm talking about generalities.)

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Asserting yourself in this way is a masculine thing to do. "I called her on it" is most definitely a male concept. The female version is "I asked her to please respect my feelings."

Men who have had "therapy" inflicted upon them can easily be identified by their claim that there is no difference between masculinity and femininity.

Shopping's fine, btw. I was just using it as the archetypical "girl" activity, like football is the "guy" thing. I happen to hate watching sports on TV, and can't even feign interest when people talk about them. That's not the point. The activity's boyishness or girlishness isn't defined by the activity itself, it's defined by how the people act while doing it, and the attitudes and moods they display.

You don't need a degree in psychology to tell when someone is acting like a girl/boy. Unfortunately, we've had enough "therapy" rammed down our throats in the last 40 years or so to make us feel guilty for noticing the difference. Women's magazines would have us believe that the ideal man is psychologically female, but able to move heavy objects.

I call BS. We think we're so enlightened -- we make fun of girls for being too frilly, make fun of guys for being too testosterone-filled, but at the end of the day, those very traits are what keep most of us interested in the other side.

(Your dad might collect lace doilies, and your mom might swing a sledgehammer at the construction site. Yay for them. I'm talking about generalities.)

The therapy thing was not meant to be taken litterally... it was meant to mean they are in denial.

[Spexxvet]

Sounds like you're in the "treat women badly and they'll want to fuck you" camp.

[mrnoodle]

Nope, I try to be nice to everyone. If you treat women badly, you probably treat men badly. The men just ignore you; the women talk about it to their friends.

Men don't stay on the phone with each other for 3 hours dissecting the hidden meaning of what their date said that night. Women do. If you stay on the phone with a woman for 3 hours while she dissects, she sees you as a girlfriend.

Say you're on the phone with a girl. Your side of the conversation consists of "hey, what's up? dude, that party was crazy...yeah i know, huh?....nah, not without their top running back....right...exactly...yeah, i'm going to go this weekend....alright...later."

You are treating this girl as a friend.

Now, say it goes like this:

"That outfit looked great on you, don't worry about it....no, he's the crazy one....well, how do you feel about it?....no, it's definitely not you. You had every right to think that....look, why do you let people treat you that way? You deserve so much better......i know....I know......yep...... exactly.....awww, don't say..... no, no, no, I would've said the same thing..."

etc.etc.etc. for an hour. You're trying to be understanding, and a good friend, and a good listener, and all that other stuff. You're taking on the role of a girlfriend. Guys don't talk that way to each other, only to women. This means one of (EDIT) 3 things:

a) you "like her" like her on some level, whether or not you admit it
b) she is your sister or mother
b) you are gay

If none of the above is true, this conversation would have you balled up in the fetal position with discomfort, praying for nuclear war or the rapture to deliver you from this hell of female heart-sharing.