Anatomy of a hang - Page 5

Kitsune · 03-24-2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Can I copy those files in safe mode?

What do you want to copy of out /windows and overwrite on the re-install? Just browsing through mine leads me to understand there isn't much, if anything, in there that you'd want to overwrite manually and not let Windows handle, instead, especially if it is a file that remains open while the OS is running. Manually changing critical system files without having windows "know" about it is asking for potentially big problems later...

Kitsune · 03-24-2006, 03:11 PM

Chill, man. Maybe he doesn't have a hairdryer, okay? Some people like to use towels, instead, and that's nothing to be ashamed of.

Undertoad · 03-24-2006, 03:12 PM

Thanks t. I read your advice, and use some of it, but as I explained, there is no room on a modern motherboard to heat only the southbridge and not any other part. It wouldn't have identified the failing part anyway, since the failing part is the drive. This is now proven as even the cable has been shotgunned out.

Undertoad · 03-24-2006, 03:16 PM

Now then, when you say "use XCOPY", where should I use it from? I was previuosly aware of XCOPY, having used it since Win 3.1 actually -- but it's not available in the Windows Recovery Console.

tw · 03-24-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Now then, when you say "use XCOPY", where should I use it from? I was previuosly aware of XCOPY, having used it since Win 3.1 actually -- but it's not available in the Windows Recovery Console.

XCOPY copies essential information such as registry, your data, and system files. Then make that drive the C: drive; boot from the CD-Rom, and do a disk repair. Many variations may be offered. Generally avoid fixing the registry, no reason to fix system files, but repair the system boot.

This repair will build a boot sector that is unique for the hard drive hardware and NTFS unique parameters. It should correct BOOT.INI, NTLDR file and boot sector so that system can boot when system is repowered - a cold boot.

BTW, before moving that slave (D: ) drive to become a master (C: ) drive, use Disk Management program to confirm that first partition of slave drive is marked active. One of those little overlook problems that sometimes takes hours to discover -been there and don't like to talk about it.

Also before doing that disk change, read the Help information on Recovery Console (one way to get to Recovery Console is to press R when Windows welcome screen appears), 'fixboot' program, 'bootcfg' program, 'chkdsk x: /f' program, and 'diskpart' progam.

I don’t remember if ‘bootvrfy’ is an XP program or was only found in NT.

Executing the 'attrib' command while in the root directory of that newly copied drive (enter 'attrib *.*' or 'attrib /?'), temporarily remove hidden and/or system attributes from boot.ini to edit that file using Notepad or some other text editor. Then use 'attrib boot.ini' to reset those attributes. That is one way to correct the boot.ini file besides using Bootcfg program.

Provided are two ways to setup the boot files for the new disk - one while it is still a D: drive or the other from booting and using the CD-ROM while new drive is a now a master drive. I have not used the 'fixboot' program so I cannot suggest 'surprises'. It sounds like it works on the boot sector like 'SYS x:' did in DOS. Provided is a long list of options for making that new drive bootable.

Using the 'ATTRIB *.*' program or using 'DIR *.* /AS' or 'DIR *.* /AH' in the root directory should confirm new or useful versions of the files Boot.ini, NTLDR, and NTDETECT.COM all in the root directory of the first (and marked active) partition. Summary of what will happen: Bootsector finds NTLDR which in turn loads and executes NTDETECT.COM

Those trying to follow this should remember one fact. If the manufacturer did not provide a CD-Rom for each of any Windows NT (also called 2000 or XP), AND that Windows code number, well, appreciate why his cost controlling would have screwed you when problems happen.

Once you get that system up and running, goto www.windowsupdate.com to finish reconstruction of that new disk.

tw · 03-24-2006, 06:33 PM

Background: Using temperature to find failures tended to associate cold with mechanical failures and heat with semiconductor problems. One exception to this was marginal timing. Worked just fine on those Perkin Elmer and 68000 microprocessor board at 70 degrees F but would fail both hot and (less often) cold. And then there was this weird computer called Gould (same as the pump company) - that would fail on any temperature above 68F. I had to intentionally cause crashes before I would believe it. NASA's solution was to keep that computer room below 50 degrees at all times. Such timing problems detectable by using temperature suggests never buy their product. Temperature should only detect unique manufacturing defects - its design confirmed by temperature extremes long ago.

Undertoad · 03-24-2006, 03:41 PM

Oh, and: xcopy won't copy the master boot record. How do I make D: bootable before making it the master drive?

dar512 · 03-24-2006, 03:54 PM

You're getting into tricky territory. I'd look for a free ghosting utility. Or just bite the bullet and plan on reinstalling Windows.

Undertoad · 03-24-2006, 06:31 PM

It was too late for these suggestions but here's what I did. I went ahead and xcopy'd in safe mode, then moved D to C and rebooted with the XP CD. In recovery console I did a fixmbr \Device\HardDisk0. This is apparently the right format. It warned me that I was about the futz my entire partition. I said yes go ahead. Then I did a fixboot c:, which again is apparently the right format. It seemed to do something. Then I did a diskpart and the partitions were as I expected. The first partition was active. Then I rebooted, and it failed to boot from the drive.

I am now installing from scratch, and will xcopy again once this install is done, and we shall see I suppose.

Undertoad · 03-26-2006, 12:45 AM

The xcopy didn't really work. It wound up with a partial copy.... wasn't an exact copy.

Saturday morning, in the shower, it occurred to me that I could probably use Linux to clone the failing drive.

If Windows won't give you the tools, just put the drives on a Linux system!

Saturday afternoon I set up my Linux machine to clone the bad drive. My Linux system is a PC. It boots from SATA. I hooked up two IDE drives - one, master, the failing drive, and two, slave, a drive identical to it.

Then log in as root, and one command:

dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb conv=noerror,sync

Three hours later both 160 GB drives are identical. 250 errors have been bypassed. The system boots from the new cloned drive and chkdsks. Success!! I used Linux to rescue the Windows problem!!

The only way I could have done it smarter, would have been to boot a Linux CD on the original system and run the command from the rescue prompt. Which I could have done, but that would have been so effing smart, it would have been brilliant. I'm not quite there yet.

Beestie · 03-26-2006, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb conv=noerror,sync...I used Linux to rescue the Windows problem!!

Told ya so.

Undertoad · 03-26-2006, 08:30 AM

Running all morning on the cloned hard drive, I think I'm going to call this system solid again. Hundreds of dollars were spent but it really took A) a correct interpretation of the error log, also known as "event viewer" and B) an undocumented process using a second entire operating system.

I'm particularly proud because this particular system started as a Win95 computer and has been constantly upgraded since, in both software and hardware.

dar512 · 03-27-2006, 09:50 AM

Still running well?

Undertoad · 03-27-2006, 10:01 AM

Yup, Event Viewer has no errors since the cloned disk was installed.

Bitman · 03-28-2006, 10:05 AM

Now that it's all over, here's a program a friend sent me (coincidentally) to help get data off a failing drive.

http://www.deaddiskdoctor.com/index.php?page=about.html

I hope it would have worked for you.

-B

03-24-2006, 06:33 PM	#6
tw Read? I only know how to write. Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 11,933	Using Temperature as a Diagnostic Tool Background: Using temperature to find failures tended to associate cold with mechanical failures and heat with semiconductor problems. One exception to this was marginal timing. Worked just fine on those Perkin Elmer and 68000 microprocessor board at 70 degrees F but would fail both hot and (less often) cold. And then there was this weird computer called Gould (same as the pump company) - that would fail on any temperature above 68F. I had to intentionally cause crashes before I would believe it. NASA's solution was to keep that computer room below 50 degrees at all times. Such timing problems detectable by using temperature suggests never buy their product. Temperature should only detect unique manufacturing defects - its design confirmed by temperature extremes long ago.

03-24-2006, 03:54 PM	#8
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	You're getting into tricky territory. I'd look for a free ghosting utility. Or just bite the bullet and plan on reinstalling Windows. __________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." -- Friedrich Schiller

03-27-2006, 09:50 AM	#13
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	Still running well? __________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." -- Friedrich Schiller

03-24-2006, 03:11 PM	#2
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	Chill, man. Maybe he doesn't have a hairdryer, okay? Some people like to use towels, instead, and that's nothing to be ashamed of.

03-24-2006, 03:12 PM	#3
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Thanks t. I read your advice, and use some of it, but as I explained, there is no room on a modern motherboard to heat only the southbridge and not any other part. It wouldn't have identified the failing part anyway, since the failing part is the drive. This is now proven as even the cable has been shotgunned out.

03-24-2006, 03:16 PM	#4
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Now then, when you say "use XCOPY", where should I use it from? I was previuosly aware of XCOPY, having used it since Win 3.1 actually -- but it's not available in the Windows Recovery Console.

03-24-2006, 03:41 PM	#7
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Oh, and: xcopy won't copy the master boot record. How do I make D: bootable before making it the master drive?

03-24-2006, 06:31 PM	#9
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	It was too late for these suggestions but here's what I did. I went ahead and xcopy'd in safe mode, then moved D to C and rebooted with the XP CD. In recovery console I did a fixmbr \Device\HardDisk0. This is apparently the right format. It warned me that I was about the futz my entire partition. I said yes go ahead. Then I did a fixboot c:, which again is apparently the right format. It seemed to do something. Then I did a diskpart and the partitions were as I expected. The first partition was active. Then I rebooted, and it failed to boot from the drive. I am now installing from scratch, and will xcopy again once this install is done, and we shall see I suppose.

03-26-2006, 12:45 AM	#10
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	The xcopy didn't really work. It wound up with a partial copy.... wasn't an exact copy. Saturday morning, in the shower, it occurred to me that I could probably use Linux to clone the failing drive. If Windows won't give you the tools, just put the drives on a Linux system! Saturday afternoon I set up my Linux machine to clone the bad drive. My Linux system is a PC. It boots from SATA. I hooked up two IDE drives - one, master, the failing drive, and two, slave, a drive identical to it. Then log in as root, and one command: dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb conv=noerror,sync Three hours later both 160 GB drives are identical. 250 errors have been bypassed. The system boots from the new cloned drive and chkdsks. Success!! I used Linux to rescue the Windows problem!! The only way I could have done it smarter, would have been to boot a Linux CD on the original system and run the command from the rescue prompt. Which I could have done, but that would have been so effing smart, it would have been brilliant. I'm not quite there yet.

03-26-2006, 08:30 AM	#12
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Running all morning on the cloned hard drive, I think I'm going to call this system solid again. Hundreds of dollars were spent but it really took A) a correct interpretation of the error log, also known as "event viewer" and B) an undocumented process using a second entire operating system. I'm particularly proud because this particular system started as a Win95 computer and has been constantly upgraded since, in both software and hardware.

03-27-2006, 10:01 AM	#14
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Yup, Event Viewer has no errors since the cloned disk was installed.

03-28-2006, 10:05 AM	#15
Bitman cellar smellar Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: californy, baby! Posts: 403	Now that it's all over, here's a program a friend sent me (coincidentally) to help get data off a failing drive. http://www.deaddiskdoctor.com/index.php?page=about.html I hope it would have worked for you. -B

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