Vaccination & epidemic

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

"The points I have taken from the study--which I have read in detail, many times, including the facts of these new allegations, which are not in fact new at all, they are just being dredged up again because Brian Deer hasn't had an article published in awhile--have very little to do anymore with my beliefs on the subject from a medical standpoint.

Fair enough: though part of the reason for this being published is that the initial report into the case and which was referenced in earlier reports has now concluded. It was also in part prompted by the fact that Wakefield is now promoting a book about it all.

This was one study done 13 years ago, with questionable methods. The study, and the doctor himself, have been discredited time and again. I don't know anyone who cites this study as a basis for their beliefs anymore. Yet it continues to be vilified because the studies that have come after it are 1.) more scientifically sound, and 2.) more discreet.

I know very little about the other studies; and have said on numerous occasions that i think more research needs doing: as the other guy in the article said though; much of the recent research has been skewed to 'answering' and disproving this study: therefore Wakefield has managed to have a negative impact even in the area he apparently wanted to work. Also, these aren;t questionable methods. Thats the whole point of bringing this up again. This wasn;t questionable methods it was outright deliberate fraud.

The reason it is still so public, isn't just because it eclipses other studies, but because it essentially 'fathered' the whole area of investigation.

The salient point that I am taking from the recent articles (as opposed to the old study itself) is that there are many people out there who are basing their beliefs on the antithesis of one bad study, rather than simply chucking the one bad study and looking at everything that has come since. I'm pointing out that even the father who angrily calls Wakefield a fraud and hopes for the revocation of his medical license (which already happened, almost a year ago) still fundamentally believes in a more up-to-date version of Wakefield's hypothesis, presumably because he has kept up with more recent research.

I get you. That's a fair point. I wasnlt posting this to show that the whole theory of vaccines and autism is now debunked. I was posting specifically about Wakefield and the damage he has done.

As I've said before: though I personally am fairly skeptical about many of the claims made around this area, there is clearly enough concern to warrant more investigation. Until that investigation is done, then it is extremely difficult for any of the pro-vaccine doctors and scientists to claim that it is safe. Right now, nobody wins. Those who think vaccines are safe are facing the problem of massive downturn in the vaccine rates and the consequent problems that brings. Those who believe that the vaccines are potentially causing/exacerbating autism and other problems, have become villified because of studies like this. So, now all studies end up suspect, and both sides are entrenched and in conflict with each other.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Fair enough: though part of the reason for this being published is that the initial report into the case and which was referenced in earlier reports has now concluded. It was also in part prompted by the fact that Wakefield is now promoting a book about it all.

No, see, you've been had. The "initial report" is a voluntary investigation by journalist Brian Deer. The earlier concluded "reports" are all by Brian Deer. This is all the work of a single journalist who has continued to dig into the same single case for the last decade. The actual investigation by the actual UK medical board saw all this evidence as part of their hearings already. They drew their conclusions long ago. Brian Deer is now recompiling it yet again into a newly packaged set of "conclusions" because he has no other marketable skills. Wakefield's book came out almost a year ago--he was in fact specifically waiting for the medical board's ruling, so that he could bring his own side public. If you have recently noticed promotional information for the book, it is only because you have missed the first several rounds.

None of this is new. None of this furthers the worldwide discussion on the current state of the medical disease at hand. It's my personal opinion that the recent articles rehashing the same old scandals are currently doing more damage than Wakefield ever did.

[DanaC]

Well, you myay be right. But a lot of it was new to me :p

[Clodfobble]

That's because they never report on anything else.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

There is a blood test available. Until the doctors finish getting their shit together, a parent could easily have their newborn/toddler tested, or a pregnant mother could test herself, to help them make their own decision whether to delay vaccinations.

[/quote]
Will you, as an NP, be able to suggest or order such testing?

I hope so, and I hope you end up working in a practice that respects your insights and experience in this area. Assuming you are not going to go into podiatry or cosmetic surgery...

[Undertoad]

The actual investigation by the actual UK medical board saw all this evidence as part of their hearings already. They drew their conclusions long ago.

What the BMJ bit adds, and the editorial accompanying the paper agrees, is that this wasn't just error but fraud.

Originally Posted by Clod in post#2 in this thread

There was not a "revelation" that Dr. Wakefield falsified his results--there was a single accusation that he had done so, and he is currently suing said accuser.

Now that the UK Medical Board AND the British Medical Journal have had their say, and agree with Deer, do you still stand behind Wakefield since post #2?

[Clodfobble]

Since May of 2009? Ah, yes, I have had time to do more research since then, as has been extensively chronicled here in this thread. Part of that research has changed my opinion of the original MMR study, not based on the UK Medical Board or the British Medical Journal, but based on the opinions of the actual parents involved, which I read way back at the time the interviews were done.

To the best of my understanding, Wakefield fudged the data of his limited participant set for what he thought was a greater good, representing the literally thousands of other children with very similar experiences. Creating composite patients is not new or exclusive to Wakefield, but it is obviously wrong, and ultimately did more harm than good. But I absolutely stand behind him as a gastroenterologist who first widely publicized the connection between gastrointestinal disease and autism, and as an advocate who has stood by his initial association between vaccines and the symptoms of autism despite massive personal and professional loss. Were it not for Wakefield, the very clinic that I take my children to would not be open, and they and the 1000+ other patients they have seen would not be recovering and/or fully recovered. The original study did not just father the vaccine investigation, as Dana noted, it also fathered the investigation of what have turned out to be extremely effective treatment avenues. Wakefield is a flawed individual, as most of us are, and he took shortcuts that he never should have taken. He should have taken the time to make his initial study airtight, but he thought it was just the first of a long line of data to be collected and examined, he never realized the backlash to his tiny little study would be even a fraction of what it turned out to be, until it was too late.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

Will you, as an NP, be able to suggest or order such testing?

I hope so, and I hope you end up working in a practice that respects your insights and experience in this area.

I'm unclear on the technicalities of this. I know an NP can prescribe a blood draw for basic lab testing. However, all our specialty lab testing kits--the ones that have to be sent out-of-state to a proprietary lab rather than done at some walk-in place locally--have our supervising doctor's name on them. That may be an "across state lines" thing, a "more likely to get reimbursed by insurance" thing, or simply a "we get stacks of test kits pre-printed in advance, so they all get one name on them" thing.

The intention is most certainly that I will be working in a biomedical autism clinic in town. Currently there are two, but by the time I finish in several years, I expect those two will have expanded significantly (both have added new MDs in the last few months) and there may even be new independent clinics operating by then. For that specific test you're referring to, though, it's only really helpful pre-diagnosis, at least until more antiretroviral treatments have been researched. So it's unlikely anyone would come to me for it.

[TheMercenary]

I think this may provide evidence that a cause was given to an effect under other than honorable conditions. It therefore gave a convenient source of blame to be weighed against an obvious, albeit potentially false cause. And given the sudden increase in the recognition of cases of autism other causes need to be scientifically explored. Money needs to be funneled in to better and broader research. The number of children being identified as having some form of autism has significantly increased and we need to take a hard look at the issue. But we cannot and should not expend expediency for connivence of a cause. Science should provide us with adequate clues to direct further research.

[DanaC]

*looks slightly startled* Merc...I think...I think I may agree with you :P

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

And given the sudden increase in the recognition of cases of autism other causes need to be scientifically explored. Money needs to be funneled in to better and broader research.

You are repeating what science has been saying for generations. There are easily 100,000 chemicals we all routinely contact that are virtually unstudied. Some chemicals - ie teflon - were known to have serious health affects in 1970. Laws said those facts could be and still can be withheld. Only 'activist judges' and wikileak type actions have exposed some.

Danger is not limited to household and workplace chemicals. We know a minimum size Vitamin C tablet sold in miracle health stores is just under what causes genetic damage. Where was anyone discussing these known hard facts when hyping what was obviously junk science on vaccinations.

A previous study once "proved" childhood leukemia from electric lines. Where do we start casting blame? At those who ignored the study to blame high power transmission lines? Hearsay even identified the wrong wires. That bogus study was blaming a wire under the floor to air conditioners or stoves. Not only was it also an intentionally deceptive study. It was made scandalous again because so many people out here never got past a sound byte. Believed only what their emotions told them to know.

We know we have a serious chemical problem in all homes. We just do not know how serious, where the problems lie, and have citizens who cannot think using concepts taught in junior high school science. If we did, then Saddam did not have WMDs. And we would have been going after bin Laden back in 2002.

Numbers now suggest that maybe one in 120 kids have autism. That number increases to about one in 70 when kids live in agricultural regions where pesticides are used extensively. Is that enough to know anything? Does that blame pesticides? Not for one minute. Of course not. That is only enough to prove research must be done. Amazing how many Jenny McCarthy's only need know that much to be experts.

Ironically, many chemical dangers are known to the manufacturers. That information need not be released for the same reason why cigarette manufacturers were test marketing products to addict five year olds to cigarettes. In a government where mosques in Manhattan are major disasters, impossible is to do what is necessary to also identify the reason for autism. This problem made worse because so many even here could not see through an obvious infant vaccination myth.

One must start at the source of all these problems. Too many citizens are so easily scammed – have so little ability to think for themselves – as to even waste money on power strip surge protectors. Even the manufacturer does not claim protection. So many buy one in violation of principles even taught in junior high science. Its all about learning how to think. And about ignoring attitudes bases only in emotion.

How many are so dumb at to buy Dannon Yogurt for its digestive assistance and digitlaus rectalitem? Yes it is called that because you stick your finger up your ass to be "informed". That is where this problem starts. That is where an autism solution must begin. Because of where this problem lies, many here will call this post confusing - so they can ignore problem #1.

One did not have to read much to know those autism claims were bogus. Other than one study - now so discredited - no other hard facts existed. Only feelings and emotions existed. Traceable to problem #1.

[glatt]

You forgot Listerine. But I guess you replaced it with Dannon.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

You forgot Listerine. But I guess you replaced it with Dannon.

Scams that exist only because of problem #1. Put four wheel drive safety on that list.

[Undertoad]

That number increases to about one in 70 when kids live in agricultural regions where pesticides are used extensively.

citation needed

[Shawnee123]