Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone

[BigV]

BRAVO!!

[DanaC]

Well said Queeq!

[Undertoad]

When you commit two years of your life of public service to our nation, two years which are your country's and not your own, I will support and thank you too.

Please let us know your plans.

they're no longer fighting for the security of their country

That is your opinion, and we all certainly hope you are right about that, but if you are or even if you're not, the military doesn't have a choice in the matter.

The troops go regardless of the rhetoric, and should be held in high regard regardless of the rhetoric.

[queequeger]

How about the four years that I'm currently serving? Is that enough? I do hold them in high regard, but no more than any other civil servant, teacher, plumber or any other job. I don't 'have contempt for the troops,' I am a troop, it just drives me up the wall (and to swearing at people, I guess) when people use me, most of my friends, my fiance, and my entire nuclear family as bargaining chips, or worse as some reason to squash public dissent.

Military members are no better or worse at their core than anyone you see on a daily basis, and shouldn't be treated or used as such.

[Undertoad]

Thank you for your service.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Thank you for your service.

Don't you see that's my point? Why are you thanking me for my service? If someone chooses to be a biochemist, do we usually thank them for doing that? What about if someone chooses to work for a telecommunications company? Should they be thanked? A University prof?

For some reason we've decided that a few fields of work are somehow more noble than others, or deserve our respect more. Medicine, peacekeeping, and war fighting are some that I think of immediately, and frankly I'm still undecided as to how much the military really contributes to society, be it global or local communities.

I tell you this, while there are military members who've fallen into that talk, myself and most I know don't consider ourselves any different than any civilians, I'm not being modest, I'm being honest.

Also, mercenary, what'd you do in the army?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Then again, you're not putting your life on the line. An air conditioned office in Georgia is a far cry from a combat zone.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Then again, you're not putting your life on the line. An air conditioned office in Georgia is a far cry from a combat zone.

So my word doesn't matter because I didn't draw the bad lottery ticket? It wasn't my choice to be here anymore than others IN country choose to be there. In fact the military has a funny way of doing the exact OPPOSITE of what you ask from it. Ask any other members past or present

Meanwhile in most of the real world it's the Serengeti Plain, eat or be eaten. The disorder is all around you. And in certain places, it's nuclear. You don't like the current conflict... because you don't like its politics. Yeah well I didn't vote for the guy either but this was one way to go about cleaning up the middle east and Bill Clinton might well have taken the same approach, although he would have made sure France was paid off properly before going to the UN.

So... what does the local carjacking have with the military? And what armed conflict are we involved in with Syria or ROK? And it should be pointed out that this was NOT a way to clean up the middle east, it might have been if it were done properly, but all its done is messed things up WAY worse.

I can't wait for a D to be President so people like you (omg that's a terrible phrase to use) will sober up and recognize that. (what a terrible thing to say)

You said it yourself, Bill Clinton might have done the same thing. I have no doubt that any Democratic president elected will still use force. And I love how everyone says that democrats are 'anti-military,' but guess what? Over the past 20 or so years, the highest increase in pay per soldier was under a democratic president. He did a much better job with the military than the president before him, or the president after him. Also, if you remember, the guy that was president during WWII... democrat.

My point was that I'm not SURE about the usefulness of the military. Mostly because I'm what you call a global thinker. In the end, what's best for the entirety of humanity is far more important than what's best for the US... this is because I'm not arrogant or prickish enough to think that those things are one in the same. There are a LOT more people on the planet than are in the US. And in my opinion, what we are doing is NOT in the global interest, it was done ONLY with personal interest. And THAT is something that most democratic presidents wouldn't have done.

P.S. Don't assume that I'm a democrat or that I agree with them all. I'm a liberal for sure, but I'm not part of some amorphous lump of 'those kind of people' anymore than you are. In fact, I'm NOT in favor of a withdrawal from Iraq. I just don't want to be directly involved in the killing anymore.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by queequeger

So my word doesn't matter because I didn't draw the bad lottery ticket? It wasn't my choice to be here anymore than others IN country choose to be there. In fact the military has a funny way of doing the exact OPPOSITE of what you ask from it. Ask any other members past or present

No no, not at all, but birds of a feather. My point is, being stateside in the Air Force, is different from the Marines or Army in Iraq, is different from the National Guard, or Navy, in either place.

The people that sign up for the Marines or Army, knowing they are going to be grunts, especially during a war, are probably not motivated by the tuition money as much as the people that join the Air force or Navy with a needed skill. The grunts are taking a bigger risk, putting more on the line, also.
Scoffing at their sacrifice doesn't diminish it.

The Guards that signed up in peace time, one weekend a month, two weeks in the summer, for extra income and the benefits, took a crap shoot and lost. Because they knew the risk, doesn't diminish the sacrifices they are making over there. The fact they shouldn't be there in the first place, doesn't either.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by queequeger

Don't you see that's my point? Why are you thanking me for my service?

You said you were doing four years of public service for our country. I don't give a shit what your intentions are, whether it's to make a dime or college money or whatever. The soldier/marines are putting their life on the line without having the ability to decide where and when. I would also thank firefighters and cops and anyone else of that ilk. These are the folks who do the heavy lifting in society that I personally don't care to do. When the shit hits the fan they are the ones knee-deep in shit.

and frankly I'm still undecided as to how much the military really contributes to society, be it global or local communities

It's wonderful to be in that position where the benefit is not totally obvious!

Meanwhile in most of the real world it's the Serengeti Plain, eat or be eaten. The disorder is all around you. And in certain places, it's nuclear. You don't like the current conflict... because you don't like its politics. Yeah well I didn't vote for the guy either but this was one way to go about cleaning up the middle east and Bill Clinton might well have taken the same approach, although he would have made sure France was paid off properly before going to the UN.

WW2 was only 4 generations ago and today there's much, much greater capacity and much more at stake. Deadly force will continue to be needed and it will continue to be deadly. I can't wait for a D to be President so people like you (omg that's a terrible phrase to use) will sober up and recognize that. (what a terrible thing to say)

[queequeger]

Absolutely, I don't mean to imply that the anti-war side uses it any more than the pro-war, it makes me sick either way.

And I don't think military service is so hard most can't take it, I think everyone that joins expects and is therefore ready for on-call-at-all-times and deployments. But then again, I'm in the air force: inventors of the air-conditioned tent city.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by queequeger

Absolutely, I don't mean to imply that the anti-war side uses it any more than the pro-war, it makes me sick either way.

And I don't think military service is so hard most can't take it, I think everyone that joins expects and is therefore ready for on-call-at-all-times and deployments. But then again, I'm in the air force: inventors of the air-conditioned tent city.

Got ya. I was 20 years Army and loved it. I tell my kids not to go into the Army unless they are going SF (son). My youngest dau may go in the AF after college. All good stuff. One thing is for sure, they will have health insurance while on AD and that is more than most can say about the current job market.

[Undertoad]

The point is, there are savages everywhere, from which we need protection and direction.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The point is, there are savages everywhere, from which we need protection and direction.

I have a huge problem with this idea. We need to protect ourselves from savages here, not be protected from savages everywhere. You do get that all savages everywhere creates a state of permanent warfare, do you not?

[Undertoad]

Don't kid yourself. The world is in a permanent state of warfare. You never notice it because, like crime, 99% of it never leads anywhere because somebody sane says, if we do this we will be punished or killed.

Musharraf says, the first thing he thought when considering his options post 9/11 was, shall I go to war with the US? And his second thought was, no, we will be pulverized.