Howard Dean talks straight - Page 4

Griff · 07-26-2005, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

You, Griff, have either told me at least one lie in that post, or you suffer from muddy thinking. You can do better.

No, I can't.

We agree on a lot but not this one.

Happy Monkey · 07-26-2005, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Not obligated, I think he meant morally permitted.

I don't see a difference when it comes to war.

xoxoxoBruce · 07-26-2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Quite.

After all, is there a more easily discernible evil on Earth's face than that of tyranny, totalitarianism, and all their variations and degrees of oppression? Ever notice just how much of the world's garbage happens in places that aren't democracies, but are democracy's opposite?

Remove the lot!

And it'll take more than calm, reasoned explanation of why representative democracy is really better all around to shift these buggers. That's human nature: people will fight like mad dogs to attain or retain power. You want freedom? -- be prepared to shoot mad dogs, and don't just confine yourself to shooting. You know they'd just as soon bomb you; be prepared to bomb.

When the last dictator is hanged on the guts of the last national chief of secret police, how much of the world's misery will have fled?

Holy cow! You must scare the crap out of those tyrants. You sure scare the crap out of me.

lookout123 · 07-26-2005, 08:48 PM

hmm, an interventionist with Radar's passion.

Urbane Guerrilla · 07-27-2005, 03:54 AM

Well, Bruce, I've been part of the shooting-at-tyranny, in my country's uniform. The experience of nine years of doing this convinced me of the necessity of being willing and able to give tyrannies the chop. This is what the freedom people, and the free peoples, should be doing, and doing a lot more of it. Certainly the tyrannies won't.

If you govern by arbitrary decree and not by a constitution, if the populace is not the source of all the political power, what you are is a target.

Dictatorships primarily exist to oppress, in a greater or lesser degree -- but oppression is what they do, in the last analysis, either by pogroms or by partiality. This is widely understood to be a bad thing.

Undertoad · 07-27-2005, 08:08 AM

I'm with you man but if the result is a civil war there's a chance you could just wind up with another tyranny. Doing it right is a wonderful thing. Doing it wrong...

xoxoxoBruce · 07-27-2005, 02:21 PM

On the TV news today (CNN) they made the statement that "The adinistration concedes Iraq will probably have a low-grade civil war when we leave." WTF? Low-grade? They didn't name a source.

xoxoxoBruce · 07-27-2005, 02:29 PM

UG, if you take a hard line, "Because I'm the Mommy" stance they leave home and never call or send you birthday cards.

Urbane Guerrilla · 07-27-2005, 11:46 PM

Sounds like they expect this level of pointless blowings-up to continue for a time -- to total futility. The anti-liberty Rump Saddamite faction continues being unable to change anything but the bodycount. The Ba'athists, having spent a generation mismanaging things and wasting their nation's time and substance in oppression and repression, aren't coming back; the rest of Iraq isn't going to let them.

In my opinion, they should quit wasting their explosives. They've made it perfectly clear that all they have to offer is death -- and death in the aid of the evil of totalitarianism, yet. I see the rest of Iraq offering a collective "No, Thanks!" in reply. The rest of the Iraqis are also tougher than you guys -- they are pushing on. All the Rump Saddamites are doing is bending up a lot of car parts.

wolf · 07-28-2005, 12:19 AM

Work has sucked, I worked a double last night because someone called in vomiting an hour before their shift was to start and I've been behind on my news watching and reading ... someone at work today mentioned that the draft Iraqi Constitution is preparing them to set up an Islamic Theocracy ... comments/confirmation?

Happy Monkey · 07-28-2005, 06:47 AM

If so, the oppressed class will go from "enemies of Saddam" to "women and anyone who is viewed as less devout than the ruling clergy".

Troubleshooter · 07-28-2005, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

...someone at work today mentioned that the draft Iraqi Constitution is preparing them to set up an Islamic Theocracy...

This would come as a surprise?

1) It could give Bush and his religious right nut-job buddies a class in how to run things

2) We only really have the power to bomb people, not change their thinking

3) Our leaders don't really care how it turns out so long as the oil and votes keeps flowing

Trilby · 07-28-2005, 11:12 AM

I don't know about you all but the oil is hardly flowing here in Ohio. Two-thirtyeight/gallon is not exactly what we all expected after "winning" the war.

xoxoxoBruce · 07-28-2005, 05:53 PM

But it's there, so it is flowing. It's $2.38 because the profits are flowing too.

richlevy · 07-28-2005, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

I don't know about you all but the oil is hardly flowing here in Ohio. Two-thirtyeight/gallon is not exactly what we all expected after "winning" the war.

Thats why the war is a failure from two different points of view.

Liberals hate the entire idea of a 'blood for oil' war.

Neo-Cons hate the idea of a failed 'blood for oil' war which will cost $300 billion, hasn't resulted in any significant oil exports, and where we actually have to give the country back.

07-26-2005, 08:48 PM	#49
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	hmm, an interventionist with Radar's passion. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

07-27-2005, 03:54 AM	#50
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Well, Bruce, I've been part of the shooting-at-tyranny, in my country's uniform. The experience of nine years of doing this convinced me of the necessity of being willing and able to give tyrannies the chop. This is what the freedom people, and the free peoples, should be doing, and doing a lot more of it. Certainly the tyrannies won't. If you govern by arbitrary decree and not by a constitution, if the populace is not the source of all the political power, what you are is a target. Dictatorships primarily exist to oppress, in a greater or lesser degree -- but oppression is what they do, in the last analysis, either by pogroms or by partiality. This is widely understood to be a bad thing. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

07-27-2005, 02:21 PM	#52
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	On the TV news today (CNN) they made the statement that "The adinistration concedes Iraq will probably have a low-grade civil war when we leave." WTF? Low-grade? They didn't name a source. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

07-27-2005, 02:29 PM	#53
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	UG, if you take a hard line, "Because I'm the Mommy" stance they leave home and never call or send you birthday cards. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

07-27-2005, 11:46 PM	#54
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Sounds like they expect this level of pointless blowings-up to continue for a time -- to total futility. The anti-liberty Rump Saddamite faction continues being unable to change anything but the bodycount. The Ba'athists, having spent a generation mismanaging things and wasting their nation's time and substance in oppression and repression, aren't coming back; the rest of Iraq isn't going to let them. In my opinion, they should quit wasting their explosives. They've made it perfectly clear that all they have to offer is death -- and death in the aid of the evil of totalitarianism, yet. I see the rest of Iraq offering a collective "No, Thanks!" in reply. The rest of the Iraqis are also tougher than you guys -- they are pushing on. All the Rump Saddamites are doing is bending up a lot of car parts. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

07-27-2005, 08:08 AM	#51
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I'm with you man but if the result is a civil war there's a chance you could just wind up with another tyranny. Doing it right is a wonderful thing. Doing it wrong...

07-28-2005, 12:19 AM	#55
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Work has sucked, I worked a double last night because someone called in vomiting an hour before their shift was to start and I've been behind on my news watching and reading ... someone at work today mentioned that the draft Iraqi Constitution is preparing them to set up an Islamic Theocracy ... comments/confirmation? __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-28-2005, 06:47 AM	#56
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	If so, the oppressed class will go from "enemies of Saddam" to "women and anyone who is viewed as less devout than the ruling clergy". __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-28-2005, 11:12 AM	#58
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	I don't know about you all but the oil is hardly flowing here in Ohio. Two-thirtyeight/gallon is not exactly what we all expected after "winning" the war. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

07-28-2005, 05:53 PM	#59
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	But it's there, so it is flowing. It's $2.38 because the profits are flowing too. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

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