4/26/2005: Agent Orange victim

[Clodfobble]

Texas already has the second-highest population of Vietnamese, after California. 134,961 as of the 2000 census.

41% of those are in one county (aka Houston.)

Seems someone already thought of it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Yeah, I remember the shrimp wars when they first got here and doubled the size of the shrimp fleet. That's why I thought Texas would be perfect with all that support group in place. I think Minnesota has a bunch too, IRRC?

[jaguar]

that's chloracne BigV. Can come on bloody fast to depending on exposure level, a bit like radioation sickness. IIRC big, old transformers had craploads of that stuff for coolant.
I'll quote myself wolf:

Maybe this one isn't Agent Orange related but the chances are it is

Dow and monsanto settled for a paltry 128m total, new claims have no *nowhere*.

I suggest Texas.

They've suffered enough.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by jaguar

that's chloracne BigV. Can come on bloody fast to depending on exposure level, a bit like radioation sickness. IIRC big, old transformers had craploads of that stuff for coolant.

PolyChlorinated Biphenol, not only transformers, all kinds of industrial and commercial oils were loaded with PCBs. That's why industrial sites, Railroad yards and Electric Company service yards are popular toxic fund cleanup sites.

[OnyxCougar]

Weren't we asked by South Vietnam to come help repel invasion from North Vietnam?

[LCanal]

It must be true 'cause it made it to the BBC. Well mostly true then...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4494347.stm

[busterb]

Damn that sounds like cancer alley

[xoxoxoBruce]

BBC Story lead in;

Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam, relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious weapons during the war, the chemical Agent Orange.

Not to strained to request Boeing to build a plant there.

[LCanal]

Probably true I don't know the history.

That's the irony. Just as the Brits went to Northern Ireland originaly to protect the catholics from protestant violence.

Iraq is just getting started.

[tw]

Originally Posted by warch

No. I think the appropriate liberal response would be to investigate the claims further ( a lawsuit is obviously neccessary to demand governmental and corporate attention), build a working relationship with the Vietnamese on this issue that strives to move beyond political games, respond with justice and compassion to the afflicted- including any Vets still suffering, to those found to have been made ill by our toxic dump or those at continuing risk, this compassion taking the form of funding internationally collaborative healthcare support, environmental education, and cleanup as possible. The appropriate liberal response I think, is rational and civil.

There is a small problem with the assumption that that genetic defect is traceable to Agent Orange. Even the Admiral who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs (during Vietnam) believed Agent Orange killed his son. But making specific proof has been elusive.

First, not all Agent Orange contained dioxin. When made correctly, Agent Orange had no dioxin. But many companies (including one in the same county as The Cellar) made the stuff. Not all made it correctly. The amounts of dioxin vary significantly and do not exist in all locations treated by Agent Orange. Therefore many locations where dioxins did not exist are still blamed for health and birth defects.

It gets more complex. For example, a recent study demonstrated how large doses of toxins cause no adverse problems whereas low (minisucle) doses can cause genetic defects. This only complicates a problem in courts.

Yes, there is a statistical relationship between Agent Orange and those health problems. Which ones? No one can say. Even the Admiral could not establish a relationship between Agent Orange and his son's death even though he tried. The problem is the science. A direct relationship between a specific health problem and dioxin currently does not exist.

Pictured is what dioxin did the Yushchenko. Why were the Austrian doctors originally so mystified by his health problem? Because what dioxin does still is not well understood. This poisoning was only discovered in two or three 'not well circulated' papers in Russia (which is why Russian involvement was suspected). Specialists from U of VA eventually uncovered a link between dioxin and the previously unknow health problem. No matter how much one is sure that dioxin must be the source of so many Vietnam birth defects, unfortunately, science still does not understand what dioxin does nor what diseases can result.

The world is ternary. Arguements made here are based upon binary logic. Yes, there is a statistical relationship between dioxin and health defects. But the law demands that a defect must be specifically attached to a source. Unfortunately, a direct relationship between low level dioxin exposure and the resulting health problems have never been established. Not established even by those who desperately wanted to find those relationships. Tragic? Yes. But the emotion attached to a tragedy does not make fact. The courts need facts.

As the frog demonstrates, science did not understand that lower levels of a toxin can sometimes be more lethal. Still unknown are reasons why this is so. Science also was mostly unaware of a relationship between dioxin and what Yushcenko suffered. Major talent was recruited to save Yushchenko's life.

In a ternary world, the relationship between Agent Orange and specific genetic defects remains in neither the Yes or No categories. In science, the relationship remains in the column entitled "unknown".

The one fact we do know - some applications of Agent Orange appear to be statistically related to health and birth defects. Details still remain unknown.

A very good case could be made for a government conspiracy to coverup the Agent Orange story. However, where are all the employees of those Agent Orange factories who should have also suffered? Too many questions remain to make a case in court.

[tw]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Weren't we asked by South Vietnam to come help repel invasion from North Vietnam?

Read David Halberstam's "Making of a Quagmire". In particular is the battle of Ap Bac in December 1962. The S Vietnamese government's #1 fear was not communist insurgents (the Viet Cong). It was an coup d'etat by their own people. If a unit commander lost equipment while fighting communists, he could even be reprimmanded. Equipment that was stationed first and foremost to protect the S Vietname government from its own people.

Those who saw Vietnam in black and white never understood what David Halbersham warned in his 1964 book. Halberstam turned out to be right - in spades. But few even read the Pentagon Papers. To the ill informed, Vietnam was about stopping communism. Not really - at least from the perspective of the S Vietnamese government. For if it was true, then why was the Vietnam Declaration of Independence an exact copy of the US Declaration of Independence. For if it was true, then why did Ho Chi Minh send five letters to the US president asking that Vietnam be made a protectorate of the US - just like Philippines.

Those who see the world in simplist terms never really understood why America wasted so many lives in Vietnam. Making of a Quagmire is a lexicon of American culture because of this book. The domino theory was how politicans promoted their agenda to an American public who finally comprehended the real problem after 1972.