What are the legitimate functions of government?

Your statement of "Could we, as only a group of citizens, coordinate that? " Belittles yourself. To me that shows an example of a personality which only wishes to be led and not to think.

Well then, allow me to mother fucking clarify:

I do not think that 250 million people could agree on any single thing. Furthermore, I do not think they could be split into ten or less solid, defined factions, each with their own choice of contractor and price for, say, building an interstate highway system. Government has a hard enough time with its stupidly slow bueracracy - like we need 250 million fucking people voting on whether or not we do such or such.

To me, it shows nothing about whether or not I wish to be lead or to lead. It shows nothing of whether or not I care to think or not, save the fact that your belief that we could accomplish such feats, without having some central regulation, seems to be based less on thought and more on a silly ideal, whereas mine is derived, rationally, from a solid understanding of human nature. But if you feel you can get 250 million people to agree on something, be my guest.

In the Spanish revolution crime as you stated before such as looting ones neighbours, was not present. The crimes being conduced were by those of the communists and fascists attacking the Anarchists.

First point: If the anarchists had a government that protected them, maybe said crimes would never have happened.

Second: Do you honestly believe that, if the communists and fascists had been removed, there would have been NO CRIME WHATSOEVER?

[jaguar]

God this thread is getting a tad myopic for my liking, time to post

First off, not all governments can NOT represent their people, take a more direct democratic model - Classical Athenian. Now I’m out on a limb here because the only "citizens" in Athens were +20 males, BUT over 6000 were required in the hall for a law to be passed, juries for criminals often considered of up to *500* people. A correct implementation of Marx’s theories has similarities.

Democracy sucks - until we come up with something better.

Government is stupid brute force, period.

Mao said political power comes out of the barrel of a gun, Bush has just vindicated that, I think it’s a pile of shit for people who are incapable of more delicate politics.

I imagine we'll butt heads in the future

Muse: Dham and I have been crashing into each other about once a month since we both got here - you get used to it=)

They were lead and counseled by their elders and shamans. Not governed. Rules and regulations weren't imposed by the elders, they were morally developed through the whole society.

Erm....... They were applied by the society, on the society, the people governed the people inside a structure, and self-governance is still governance.

.......crime was not existent within the anarchistic society of the Spanish Revolution...

And the hospital system is impeccable in Cuba. It’s when things get hard the dissent starts to flow.

and to answer your questions.....yes I have driven on a highway, do we need governments to build the highways or to we need businesses to?

This one scared me. What the FUNDAMENTAL purpose of business - to make money, by handing over al our infrastructure to private hands we are asking for one hell of allot of trouble, I’m watching our public transport net here fall apart because its in private hands, things that are meant to provide board services to the community SHOULD BE RUN BY COMPANIES.

Can you guarantee to me that the U.S. government is not in the war on Afghanistan for oil?

This comes up again - the US Govt has been reading too much Mao. Fuckit the response was not justified, a better, abet longer term strategy would have been to assassinate Bin Laden in his own community, change perspectives in the Muslim world, takes longer but its s more permanent solution, by bombing, they’ve toppled an unstable/nutter government, and achieved little else apart form some pride regained and displacing/killing/maiming hundreds of thousands of people. Pulling that off, the delicate political approach requires too much though for Bush I think - and the Us population that are calling for blood, so blind, so myopic they don't care of more Afghanis, innocent Afghanis like the innocent Americans in the WTC die, to get bin laden that died in the WTC, fucking sad.

unless you consider the Iraqi seizure of Kuwait to be a fait accompli at the time

Last I checked one country invading another wasn’t a legal prerequisite for the USA to wander in for gods sake, take the global policeman shit and shove it, I’ve seen more honest cops in Vietnam.

I do not think that 250 million people could agree on any single thing

this really is the crux of the issue, it’s just too bloody big all round. Something like the Athenian model would be hilarious - try getting about 30 MILLION people in congress lol. If power bloc weren’t such an issue I’d like to see it broken down into like autonomous states, with then a legislative council of one member form each state for issues of national importance (foreign affairs) pure fallacy of course but I think democracy loses its grounding in countries so large, that disattachment from political candidates, and the apathy that evolves as a result.

In the Spanish revolution crime as you stated before such as looting ones neighbors, was not present. The crimes being conduced were by those of the communists and fascists attacking the Anarchists.

Sorry but WHAT.THE.FUCK.IS.THIS.SHIT.

What are you? a peaceful anarchist? If no one exerts power over anyone else then we're all free? That was a joke system we use in debates at school - peaceful anarchy. What happens when one bloke get a few mates together to cause trouble, you're fucked because you're on your own, so afterwards you form your own group and probably have some kind of leader - voila, a government is formed. Anarchists are people who are confused - but too apathetic to do anything about it.

[russotto]

Originally posted by Muse
Rusutto, to begin with, I'm not quite sure where you live but i'm taking it that it is in the U.S.

Yep. Trappe, PA, USA.

This is due to the fact that if you live somewhere where the media has not yet been completely manipulated by the U.S. Governent you would realise that there would be an international outcry to the retaliation which is taking place.

This fact is not unknown in the US. There's also much internation support for this retaliation. No surprise there either.

Numerous accounts have been recently released dealing with certain facts such as that it is impossible to mobilise the military might of the U.S. in 2 months. The operations planned for Dessert Storm alone took over 4.

Dessert Storm? Yum.

In any case, Iraq was a country with a real (if puny compared to the US) army and military structure. The Taliban was a band of warlords barely able to beat down another band of warlords they were in conflict with -- it didn't take much to tip the balance.

There's also the fact that the supposed account of Bin Laden on Video released would never be admissable in a court. This is becasue it can easily be forged, students in Britain recently made one of Bush.

Certainly it could be faked. Is there any credible reason to believe it was? There are good reasons to believe it was not, such as parts embarrassing to Saudi Arabia (a US ally). Its admissibility in court would depend on a number of factors simply not applicable here -- chain of evidence, for instance.

Also, although there is no oil in Afghanistan, the U.S. prior to Sept 11th was trying to get the Taliban to put a pipe line through their country. The US had brought Taliban leaders into the U.S. to negotiate this. However they declined.

Oh yeah, we knocked off the Taliban for a lousy pipeline. What's next, we invade France over poor turnout at Euro-Disney? If the pipeline was an issue the US has many much more subtle ways of getting its way than outright war.

By the way the report was written by Ramsey Clark who once served as the Attorney General

And a certifiable kook.

One of the 19 crimes the U.S. was convicted of was "The United States engaged in a pattern of conduct beginning in or before 1989 intended to lead Iraq into provocations justifying U.S. military action against Iraq and permanent U.S. military domination of the Gulf. "

Quite Machievellian, but even if so, it was still up to Iraq to take the bait.

Another one being "2. President Bush from August 2, 1990, intended and acted to prevent any interference with his plan to destroy Iraq economically and militarily."

That's basically what war IS.

[jaguar]

Russia stand to benifit more than the in the issue with pipelines anyway. Personally i think whatever they do unless they've got an armed guard every 500m along the pipeline the idea of it staying intact for long seems pretty unlikely.

[Muse]

..........i'll just try and respond to a couple of things....

If the anarchists had a government that protected them, maybe said crimes would never have happened.

..........okay besides the fact that a govenment is exactly what anarchism is against....a government wouldn't have protected them from the communists or fascists due to the fact that they simply would have been assimilated as well. As well the great conditions of the proletarians would never have existed if a government had been there.

What the FUNDAMENTAL purpose of business - to make money, by handing over al our infrastructure to private hands we are asking for one hell of allot of trouble,

with the political belief of anarchism buisness run as things called syndicates. The general thought behind this that society looks after the moral implications of the industry and those within the buisness make the day to day decisions

What are you? a peaceful anarchist? If no one exerts power over anyone else then we're all free? That was a joke system we use in debates at school - peaceful anarchy.

ummm okay........to start...yes i am a peacful anarchists......as are the majority of anarchists. It depends on what you see as peacful. I am not peacful in that fact that I sit around in complacency, I stand up for my beliefs either in demonstrations or another froms of action.
.......so are you trying to say that people need strict regulations forced upon them for a society to work, that people do not have their own morals?

Originally posted by Muse
..so are you trying to say that people need strict regulations forced upon them for a society to work, that people do not have their own morals?

Oh no, everyone has morals. The problem comes when one's moral activities including raping children and killing their parents or killing the niggers and kikes or castrating all crackers or going around to rape and kill all dem white bitches.

What then, Muse? "Oh, it's cool, since they're alright with it"? Do you do something to stop that person? Why?

[jaguar]

with the political belief of anarchism buisness run as things called syndicates. The general thought behind this that society looks after the moral implications of the industry and those within the buisness make the day to day decisions

Sounds bloody similar to classical democracy to me.

ummm okay........to start...yes i am a peacful anarchists......as are the majority of anarchists. It depends on what you see as peacful. I am not peacful in that fact that I sit around in complacency, I stand up for my beliefs either in demonstrations or another froms of action.

No, waht i'm trying to say is that 'pure' anarchy - noone exerting any control over anyone else is a fantastic way to live, until one person stops doing it. Soon as one bloke who's been owrking out for a while starts picking on other people to give him stuff, those poeple need someone to protect them, etcetcetc, see my pervious post.

[warch]

Government is stupid brute force, period.

Oh my GOD. Jesse Ventura is my stupid brute Governor. I hate this man from the core of my being. Hurry up November.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by warch
Oh my GOD. Jesse Ventura is my stupid brute Governor. I hate this man from the core of my being. Hurry up November.

Warch or Dafydd...I'd be curious to hear your honest opinions on Ventura, since both of you live in Minnesota. From the outside looking in, it seems like he was doing a respectable job...then the whole XFL came up...and he's been pretty quiet ever since.

[warch]

Well...First off, my previous statement was pretty honest. I am not one, who studies politics, but I am a conscientious voter of average intelligence, and here are my observations:
When Ventura was running, he was shaking up the two parties and that was good. I liked the idea of another party challenging the old limits. So here's this showman. He let us all know he was not only a fab ex-wrestler, but also a Navy SEAL (he'll drop that in at every opportunity) Not just "the body", but "the brain". Hmm. He had his mayorship of a northern suburb, and his radio talk show, which was obnoxious. He celebrated, promoted himself as the average Joe, fishin', huntin' and listin' to classic rock. And if elected he would bring common sense and get tough to stop this rampant taxation! Reform Party. He was a Navy SEAL.... One listen to his radio show and you could hear that he really had no clue, but he is loud and has bravado. WWF. He won the election because he hired an ad agency who created hilarious TV spots for him. Humor worked. One involved a Jesse action figure, the other a spoof of Rodin's Thinker.
He actually asked former Twin's First Baseman Kent Hrbek to be his Lt Governor (another good regular joe) But Kent knew better (saving my opinion of him) and really just wanted to fish and promote Lenox air conditioners. So Jesse (with the direction of the Reform Party ) went with a local teacher, Mae Schunk. Now, I’d met Mae. Mae's a nice lady, but she ain't no one to Lt.Govern anything, barely a 3rd grade class. Nowadays we don’t see much of Mae.

So on Election Day we have Humphrey Jr.(squishy legacy DFLer), Norm Coleman (St Paul Mayor and *hungry* Rep) and Jesse! The vote was split 3 ways- and Jesse inched out on top. Stunned everyone. ( for the record: I vote for the candidate with the strongest supporting position on education, the arts and women's issues, needless to say this was not Jesse)
But it was interesting and unexpected that Ventura won. It demonstrated the importance of the individual vote and rattled the traditional systems. The bulk of Ventura's support came from the rural areas of MN.
Then the media circus begins....extra security is needed as he travels to be on Letterman, Today show and to go on his (multiple) book signing tours, movie spots. While ostensibly serving as my Governor he has taken virtually every opportunity to build his personal fortune while on the job. This seems very wrong to me. From marketing his books, action figures, refereeing wrestling, guest spotting on XFL. What has he done for us? Well he passed a tax reform bill in which we had our property taxes lowered, returning "surplus". We got our $100 "Jesse" check last year. He basked in the glory. Then he mishandles labor negotiations (his tactic is to name-call and make a he-man pose) and was hit with a major strike of government workers whose health benefits he supported cutting. He negotiated only when access to recreational parks/ fishing was jeopardized over the July holiday..but by then millions had been wasted in emergency contingency plans and lost construction time.
Then he takes on education. Now MN has high taxes, they also have some of the best schools, nursing homes, hospitals, museums and other service institutions I find pretty important, and yes, to be protected and supported under the legitimate functions of Government. But the budget is passed with historically deep cuts. Schools are particularly hit. One district plans a 4-day week to keep classes small and save teacher's jobs. Others of course must cut art, music, phys ed, you know the "frill" areas of study that make us human.

So Jan 2002- its the state of the state address- Severe Budget crisis-$1.95-billion deficit. Jesse's checks = Jesse’s Deficit. Jesse of course needs to deal with his high disapproval rating, he needs to re-convince us that he had nothing to do with this mess, it’s the evil legislature. He'll get in there and stand tough for us, his people. He was a Navy SEAL. (I can't stand to hear his deep nasal, mouth breathing blathering anymore)

This is what I read in the paper yesterday "Under the recommendations Ventura released Thursday, your gasoline could cost a nickel a gallon more as soon as March, with further increases tied to the rate of inflation. Your smokes would go up 29 cents a pack. Your kids' schools would get slightly less, and your property tax might be higher because state aid to your city and county would go down. If you work for the state, you might be laid off." Can't I just give my Jesse check back?
Oh, have you heard? Jesse was a Navy SEAL. Of course there is more to bitch about, his personal expenses well above any former Gov., his labeling of the media as "Jackels" and making them wear tags that say that. His ignorance.

I’m grumpy, but its good to get it out, eh? November elections come on!