Whatever happened to the McCarthurs and the Pattons - Page 4

Happy Monkey · 11-30-2004, 04:19 PM

Well, there are different terrorist groups targeting different countries, but for the most part you just listed some of the closest allies of the US, almost all of which (not Australia, AFAIK) have also had imperial incursions into the Middle East. What point were you trying to make?

Undertoad · 11-30-2004, 04:48 PM

That the problem can't be fixed that way because even if you are a great friend of Arafat and Palestine and lavish them with gifts and billions of dollars, you can decide to mandate no headgear for students and suddenly you are festering hate and creatiing terrorists.

One problem is that they hate Jews. Very well then allow them to wipe Israel off the map. Where does the hate go then?

The real problem is the intolerable clash of the successful western world against the repeatedly failing middle east. They could wipe Israel off the map and it would only cause them to find another external reason for their overall failure on the world scale. Co-dependency is not good foreign policy.

The only way to do away with the problem is to do away with the hate, or at least the power behind it, not to do away with Israel or try to massage and work with the hate in some way.

Happy Monkey · 11-30-2004, 05:19 PM

There will probably be a minority who are willing to kill as long as Israel exists, and Israel's existence will probably always stick in the craw of a majority of Muslims. But the mere existence of Israel is not enough to generate most of the non-Palestinian terrorists. It is one (though a big one) of a million issues that combine to bring the mainstream towards the extremists.

You seem to read the article as saying we should shower Muslims with gifts and submit to their every demand (do away with Israel? WTF?). That's not what it says. Our policies are almost unvaryingly detrimental to Muslim citizens, for varying reasons. The cumulative effect is that first, terrorist groups gain recruits, and then anti-American sentiment becomes strong enough that even the governments we try to bribe start America-bashing to divert dissatisfaction from them to the US.

Quote:

The only way to do away with the problem is to do away with the hate

That's the point. You have to deal with root causes. Killing current terrorists is like picking the leaves off of a tree one at a time to try to kill it.

wolf · 12-01-2004, 12:46 AM

Germany seems to have awakened to the idea they have a problem. (yes, the way I phrased that was intentional)

"Multiculturalism has failed in Germany."

Undertoad · 12-01-2004, 09:38 AM

Our policies are almost unvaryingly detrimental to Muslim citizens, for varying reasons.

Clearly untrue. You are bending the truth to fit your narrative. You want it to be the fault of the US and/or of the politicians you don't agree with.

It is not, it is a cultural problem and the US will find blame no matter what it does.

jaguar · 12-01-2004, 09:58 AM

Quote:

The only way to do away with the problem is to do away with the hate,

Bombing people into oblivion, actively supporting the biggest thorn in their side and acting with nothing short of extreme arrogance are well proven ways of solving problems such as these.

Troubleshooter · 12-01-2004, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

Bombing people into oblivion, actively supporting the biggest thorn in their side and acting with nothing short of extreme arrogance are well proven ways of solving problems such as these.

The first part of it actually works if you do the job right.

Undertoad · 12-01-2004, 10:01 AM

The hate preceded that by decades so it must have developed from something else.

Happy Monkey · 12-01-2004, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Clearly untrue. You are bending the truth to fit your narrative. You want it to be the fault of the US and/or of the politicians you don't agree with..

I don't want the fault to be anywhere in particular, except insofar as the aspects of it that are our fault are the ones we can work on most easily.

Quote:

It is not, it is a cultural problem and the US will find blame no matter what it does.

That's not an excuse to do anything. Of course there are some who will blame the US for everything. We need to make it obvious that they are wrong, and the only way to do that is to decrease the legitimate issues that they wrap the bogus ones around. If we take on the attitude that they'll blame us no matter what, so we might as well trample them, then we are giving their lies legitimate support, and providing the terrorists with more support from former moderates.

The terrorist goal is to goad the enemy power into actions which decrease their popular support.

Happy Monkey · 12-01-2004, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The hate preceded that by decades so it must have developed from something else.

Perhaps something like this:

Quote:

one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states.

Nobody's saying the bombing caused the hate (you seem to be setting up a lot of strawmen), just that it doesn't fix anything.

Happy Monkey · 12-01-2004, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The first part of it actually works if you do the job right.

That's the terrorists' plan.

Troubleshooter · 12-01-2004, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

That's the terrorists' plan.

No, it's not. They can't make enough bombs to eliminate America.

We, on the other hand, do have the resources to eliminate them.

jaguar · 12-01-2004, 10:45 AM

Turn the middle east into glass. Real stylish. Fuckwit. Next time the US bombs somewhere (doubt it'll be a long wait) I'll suggest the obliteration of every major US city, civvies be damned or maybe even targetted and well see how you react.

Quote:

The hate preceded that by decades so it must have developed from something else.

Sure it does, your reasoning about why is largely, correct, however your solutions don't seem to match the causes.

Troubleshooter · 12-01-2004, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

Turn the middle east into glass. Real stylish. Fuckwit. Next time the US bombs somewhere (doubt it'll be a long wait) I'll suggest the obliteration of every major US city, civvies be damned or maybe even targetted and well see how you react.

Control yourself.

Comparing resources and methods is not the same thing as agreeing with their uses.

Asshat

Undertoad · 12-01-2004, 11:15 AM

I didn't say I was reaching for an "excuse to do ANYTHING"; I'm just trying to get the narrative better.

Jag, perhaps the better solution is complete disengagement?

11-30-2004, 04:19 PM	#46
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Well, there are different terrorist groups targeting different countries, but for the most part you just listed some of the closest allies of the US, almost all of which (not Australia, AFAIK) have also had imperial incursions into the Middle East. What point were you trying to make? __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

12-01-2004, 12:46 AM	#49
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Germany seems to have awakened to the idea they have a problem. (yes, the way I phrased that was intentional) "Multiculturalism has failed in Germany." __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

11-30-2004, 04:48 PM	#47
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	That the problem can't be fixed that way because even if you are a great friend of Arafat and Palestine and lavish them with gifts and billions of dollars, you can decide to mandate no headgear for students and suddenly you are festering hate and creatiing terrorists. One problem is that they hate Jews. Very well then allow them to wipe Israel off the map. Where does the hate go then? The real problem is the intolerable clash of the successful western world against the repeatedly failing middle east. They could wipe Israel off the map and it would only cause them to find another external reason for their overall failure on the world scale. Co-dependency is not good foreign policy. The only way to do away with the problem is to do away with the hate, or at least the power behind it, not to do away with Israel or try to massage and work with the hate in some way.

12-01-2004, 09:38 AM	#50
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Our policies are almost unvaryingly detrimental to Muslim citizens, for varying reasons. Clearly untrue. You are bending the truth to fit your narrative. You want it to be the fault of the US and/or of the politicians you don't agree with. It is not, it is a cultural problem and the US will find blame no matter what it does.

12-01-2004, 10:01 AM	#53
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	The hate preceded that by decades so it must have developed from something else.

12-01-2004, 11:15 AM	#60
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I didn't say I was reaching for an "excuse to do ANYTHING"; I'm just trying to get the narrative better. Jag, perhaps the better solution is complete disengagement?

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