What if you didn't have a name?

[Joe Faux]

Perhaps I've been working in the technical field too long.

Names are words used to identify people, places, or things. They are tools within a language to help us, as effectively and quickly as possible, communicate with one another. The words and structure of language were defined using the joint experiences of folks long gone now.

Acronyms are a good modern day example of our need to communicate quickly with as little effort as possible.

My name is used as a tool to immediately refer to my physical presence. It was defined by my parents, in cooperation with their own ego, as a way to refer to “the baby.” I continue to use this label because, by the time I grew aware I could change it, it had grown on me. Just as anyone of my other experiences, it has helped to shape me as a person. However, it cannot describe me any better than the cover of a book could describe it's contents.

If I were to describe my essence, I would use tools of language, to describe myself based upon as a series of facts, personal truths, and opinions. Others would use similar tools to describe me using their observations. (Most times, these two descriptions will hardly ever match which would cause its own problem in our need to communicate.)

(By the way, we hardly have the patience to refer to ourselves even if the name is too long. Mary Jane = MJ. Can you imagine the acronym to describe ourself?)

A bit off topic... are we even capable to fully comprehend our own essence? I've forgotten so much since conception... some of it must have been important.

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around “living in one's soul.” My brain has filtered this into, “strive to be aware of life's details.” Much like some books I've read, I'd just assume to refer to bits of life just by their name and get on with something new.

[alphageek31337]

One of the first (and, as spiritual progress goes, worst) things advanced minds do is immediately try to seperate itself from the environment surrounding it. I refer you to Robert Bakker's novel, <i>Raptor Red</i>, where lacking any formal language with which to identify itself, the main character simply refers to herself as "Red", due to a red patch on her snout. Advanced minds are always categorical like this. The first thing they do is split the world into "Me" and "Not Me". Then, everything in the "Not Me" category is split into "Good for Me" and "Bad for Me". It's this kind of categorization, essential to our physical and egotistical survival, that prevents human beings from feeling the connectedness that does, indeed, exist. You *are not* a unique and beautiful snowflake, standing alone, your survival independent of those around you. You *are* unique in the sense that a liver is different from a kidney is different from a heart. We're all part of this big, bumbling organism, being left alone to experience the societal evuivalent of adolescence all alone. If we, as a species, can remove the barrier of ego that seperates us from each other, we'll be much better off.

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by marichiko

I think it takes a real effort toward consistent awareness to fully live within one's own soul. It is all too easy to fall back into the pattern of reacting, rather than being. I have moments, even hours when I feel that I live from my soul, and then someone does something which hurts or upsets me, and I'm back to reacting again. Its a journey, not a destination.

I quite agree. It is not 'easy' to be real while living within the confinements of the 'real world'. It is a paradox that unsettles me from time to time, paving the way for useless trails of thought that always end up in the same place: thoughtlessness. It is difficult to overcome years of tutoring (I will refrain from using the word 'indoctrination' - its connotations will only confuse things here) and in every movement you make towards true self-awareness, your 'self' pushes harder for recognition. Your journey/destination analogy bothers me for some reason... I think because being 'real' is not something you can do half-heartedly, it is something that you are. Therefore it is not a journey, not a destination you need to 'get to', but a place where you just 'am'. Saying that I think you've 'got it' Mari, and what a beautiful moment it is.

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

A bit off topic... are we even capable to fully comprehend our own essence?

Bang on topic. Except that the mistake is in attempting to 'comprehend' it. You cannot analyse it with thought, because every thought is a movement away from your 'essence'. You cannot examine or test it - you simply are it. Once you achieve this state of 'being', you will 'gain' a true understanding of your essence, and your preoccupation with thought and desparation for answers will disappear because everything that is - is right now.

[Joe Faux]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

It is a paradox that unsettles me from time to time, paving the way for useless trails of thought that always end up in the same place: thoughtlessness.

I'm not good at being a passive participant in my microcosm. “To be” invariably leads to the phrase “to become” which requires some intervention on my part.

Originally Posted by Catwoman

Bang on topic. Except that the mistake is in attempting to 'comprehend' it. You cannot analyse it with thought, because every thought is a movement away from your 'essence'.

Oohhh... I don't like limitations and hope we can overcome this someday.

Catwoman,

• When do you believe our “essence” is created and can it be destroyed?
• Who is “in charge”... our “essence” or our physical being? In other words, can I influence my “essence” based upon events that I experience in the world around me?
• Can I change who I am or am I merely a puppet to the base programming of my “essence”?
• Does our “essence” even reside inside our body?
• Then again, why do you believe our “essence” even requires these earthly frames?

So many questions lead me to my next point.

Originally Posted by Catwoman

You cannot examine or test it - you simply are it. Once you achieve this state of 'being', you will 'gain' a true understanding of your essence, and your preoccupation with thought and desparation for answers will disappear because everything that is - is right now.

My “essence” strives to learn as much about myself and the physical world as possible. Based upon your paradigm, will I ever be “real” if I remain unsettled with unanswered questions?

(Maybe I'm a poltergeist in the making. Death always comes too quickly and there's a few things I might need to wrap up. If ghosts exist I hope to have more power than the ability to knock over a few tea cups.)

[Catwoman]

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

I'm not good at being a passive participant in my microcosm. “To be” invariably leads to the phrase “to become” which requires some intervention on my part.

Absolutely not. 'Be' is not the same as 'become'. It is an antonym. 'Become' suggests movement, progress. 'Be' simply is. Bear in mind we are only using words here - the best words our language provides us with to attempt to describe something essentially indescribable. May sound like a cop-out to your scholared and linear way of thinking but hopefully we can get over that and pave the way for understanding on a completely different level.

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

Oohhh... I don't like limitations and hope we can overcome this someday.

But thought is the very limitation you speak of. Thought operates on an entirely different level to 'reality' - imagine these two concepts as two planes of existence (although I wouldn't even give thought that credit). You cannot see or understand the properties of one plane from the obscured perspective of another. Like Plato's cave we piece thoughts together creating meaning that has nothing to do with reality. How can we comprehend a universe, sitting on one chair in one country on one planet in one solar system in one galaxy? The only way is to realise, no open your heart/soul to the idea - no, not idea, that still denotes thought - but possibility that we are all interlinked - us and the planets, water and wind, the earth and the universe. This is frustrating. There is no way I can explain this with words.

When do you believe our “essence” is created and can it be destroyed?

'Essence' is energy (for want of a better word). It was never created and can never be destroyed, not in terms you or I will understand. Imagine an ocean. We are all waves, rising and falling, some higher than others, all unique yet essentially the same ('essentially' meaning 'essence'), emerging from and returning to the same greater 'whole'. Birth, death - insignificant. Because we are the wave, we cannot comprehend the ocean all around us, part of us, us part of it. The human flaw is in attempting to individualise, separate. Literally, 'cannot see the wood for the trees'.

Who is “in charge”... our “essence” or our physical being? In other words, can I influence my “essence” based upon events that I experience in the world around me?

No because 'your' essence is not 'yours' at all. People like the idea of a 'soul', because not only does it offer the possibility of an 'afterlife' (so you do not have to deal with death), but it also individualises. 'I feel it in my soul'. Well, yes, in a way, but just recognise that your soul is not distinct from the greater 'soul' of the universe. That same energy/ocean/essence is what drives life, and you are life. Physicality is just a form. It is not less important, but you are caught up in the intricacies of your physical being, preoccupied with attractiveness and pain, when this is merely a creation or manifestation of essence. Which is not necessarily to say that essence cannot be influenced - I do not have the answer to that. All I would ask is why you would want to influence it? If you fear a lack of control over your own life, first recognise which 'life' you are dealing with - your contrived sense of self; or reality.

Can I change who I am or am I merely a puppet to the base programming of my “essence”?

Superficially you can change who 'you' are - you can become anyone you want to be. Any personality/occupation/other self-defining feature. If you mean the true sense of who you are - well, you just are. It may change it may not. Why would you want to change? It is the control thing again. We fear loss of control because with responsibility comes security - but it is a false security. How can we presume to have any control over life?

Does our “essence” even reside inside our body?

No, our body is just a form. When you die, your essence remains, but not in a ghostly, individual sense. Although perhaps a 'ghost' is a fragment of essence still trying to hold onto a 'self' - a ghost being just another 'form'.

Then again, why do you believe our “essence” even requires these earthly frames?

It is nature playing with form. It is fun, it is beautiful. I don't know. But I do know I will never work this one out sitting and trying to think about it. The more I just 'be' the more I can enjoy these forms without trying to understand them. Maybe the understanding will come, maybe it won't. But you find that when you live life with true connection to your greater self, the search for answers ceases and is replaced by a genuine pleasure and absorption with life.

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

My “essence” strives to learn as much about myself and the physical world as possible. Based upon your paradigm, will I ever be “real” if I remain unsettled with unanswered questions?

YOU FUCKING BASTARD WHY DON'T YOU JUST FUCKING LISTEN??!!!!!!!
Ok, now I have your attention. You are real right now in this moment. Absorb and understand everything that is happening to you. Don't try to interpret it or try to forge a reaction, just stay with it. This is real, this is the answer you are looking for, and this is all there is.

(of course you are not a fucking bastard, it was just a trick, a shock tactic to try and snap you into reality. If I had a glass to break I'd break it.)

[Joe Faux]

OK. Thanks for the long write-up and I'm sorry to put you through the dissertation. It helps clarify your position.

I believe that we exist for a reason that has yet to be understood. Whether its nature playing with itself or nature teaching our “essence” a lesson, we, as a species, naturally strive to seek solutions to broaden our knowledge. (Our attention span is so short and we're easily bored.) If an “essence” indeed exists, it would seem to me that it's challenging us to learn more about something using this framework. I think it would be contrary to our “essence” if we remained in “the moment” for too long. For goodness sake, we dream when we're asleep. Our need to learn and explore does not stop. I believe we take these lessons on following our Earthly death. Note that I do not have any fact to support this claim.

You're describing “essence” using words like “my” and “our” which would imply you believe and individual “essence” exists for each of us. Therefore, there must be some sort of being or mechanism that determines the percentage of “essence” allotted for each creature. True?

Originally Posted by Catwoman

It is the control thing again. We fear loss of control because with responsibility comes security - but it is a false security. How can we presume to have any control over life?

Ah, but we do have some control over life. If someone is found to be a serial murderer, should we respect the fact they're being true to their “essence”? Should we be allowed to be true to our nature if in fact it harms another? Why should we catch and convict people if they're merely nature's way of thinning the herd?

Originally Posted by Catwoman

All I would ask is why you would want to influence it?

I may recognize that I'm insensitive to other people's needs. I may allow other people to take advantage of me. There may be many reasons why we would want to influence our “essence”. Each of these situations would be an opportunity to grow our "essence".

“With great power comes great responsibility” - Spider Man 1962

We have more power over ourselves than we give credit for.

Originally Posted by Catwoman

But you find that when you live life with true connection to your greater self, the search for answers ceases and is replaced by a genuine pleasure and absorption with life.

I've filtered this into “acceptance for what I cannot or do not want to change. It just is.” I'll buy that... to a point. You're presuming that everyone who finds this “true connection” will be good stewards of other people's “essence” in the process.

Let me know if I misunderstood your comments.

Originally Posted by Catwoman

YOU FUCKING BASTARD WHY DON'T YOU JUST FUCKING LISTEN??!!!!!!!
Ok, now I have your attention. You are real right now in this moment.

I don't know if your Jedi mind trick worked quite the way you intended. Please see my posting link below.
http://www.cellar.org/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=16
“Sticks and stones” you know...

Originally Posted by Catwoman

of course you are not a fucking bastard,

Now there's an assumption...

Just a couple of thoughts. "But thought is the very limitation you speak of..."
Hmmm... Cat, there's your irony. How could you possibly have arrived at your current conclusions other than through your thinking about this question? I would like to submit that it is not our thinking which is our limitation, but the MANNER in which our culture and own personal psychology has inclined, even impelled us to think.

A fox or a rabbit lives completely in the present. A fox simply IS. Does this mean the fox lives on some higher spiritual plane than man? Perhaps. You must ask the foxes, and so far they aren't giving away any secrets.

I am in complete agreement with you that our essence - our life force - is energy, and the laws of thermodynamics tell us that energy is neither created nor destroyed. Where does this leave us? Only with our hypotheses which may be turn out to proven true or not. Perhaps as Joe says, our collective essence is pressing us to learn more. Then again, our collective essence may be nothing more than the demands of a double helix of DNA which commands that its sequences of amino acids not only survive, but be handed down across the millenia. An argument can be made that the perfect, most advanced life form is the virus which bothers not at all with self awareness, but has stripped itself down to the most basic essentials - a single DNA strand wrapped in a protective protein coat.

I agree with Cat that we have no control over our lives, and I agree with Joe that we do. We have both far less and far more control over our lives than most of us will ever understand. "Man plans and God laughs," as one old Spanish saying goes. Things happen in our lives which we have no control over, just as we have no control over which parents we are born to and what society we are born into. However, it is by our THOUGHTS regarding our place in the world and the events which happen to us that we create meaning for our lives; the courage to go forward or the despair that causes us to become embittered and die. Life is what we make of it, despite the blows of ill chance or the luck of the draw.

I agree Cat, that in my truest sense I simply am. Yet it is by being in this present moment that I will become what I am in the moments which follow. If I live this very moment to the best of my ability, the moments which follow will take care of themselves. If I disregard this gift of the present and squander it with remorse over the past or undue worry of the future, I squander my days because I am not living IN them.

At heart I am nomadic, a gypsy. Never do I feel so fully alive as when I am traveling some back road far from home. Bruce Chatwin in his book, Songlines, puts forth the idea that man evolved to be nomadic - that in effect, to travel is the essence of the human spirit. Our language reflects this thought. I consult The American Heritage Dictionary: The word "journey" is derived from Middle English "journei", day, day's travel, and from the Latin "diurn ta", from Late Latin "diurnum", - day, from neuter of Latin "diurnus", - of a day, from "di" , - day. If you delve even more deeply into the meaning of the word, you come across this indo-european root: "dyeu" - to shine and in its many derivatives 'sky, heaven, god.' These derivatives also include 'divine' and 'journey'. And at the very beginning of the ancestry of the word "journey" you will find its ultimate parent, the sanskrit word "deva" or spirit. My journey is my spirit.

If I cease to "journey" and feel that I have arrived at some final destination called the "ultimate truth" then I have indeed shut down my essence. One day the actual truth will come knocking at my door with the light to dispel my illusions. I'll awake from my sleep and reply crankily, "Go away! I already know you!" and I'll go back in my room and pull my comfortable blanket of darkness over my ignorant eyes.

One of the greatest modern American poets, Mary Oliver, sums up my present understanding best in her poem "Roses, Late Summer." The poem ends with these lines:

If I had another life
I would want to spend it all on some
unstinting happiness.

I would be a fox, or a tree
full of swaying branches.
I wouldn't mind being a rose
in a field full of roses.

Fear has not yet occurred to them, nor ambition.
Reason they have not yet thought of.
Neither do they ask how long they must be roses, and then what.
Or any other foolish question.

[flippant]

Stoicism and Spiderman?

Essence is the ontological representation of that which is. Your*essence* only may change before or after body. Soul/Spirit is a *symptom* of this essence. Spirit/Soul is manipulatable and only an ontic representation of HOW the essence is being.

I had too much Heidegger and Aristotle for breakfast.

Originally Posted by flippant

Stoicism and Spiderman?

Essence is the ontological representation of that which is. Your*essence* only may change before or after body. Soul/Spirit is a *symptom* of this essence. Spirit/Soul is manipulatable and only an ontic representation of HOW the essence is being.

I had too much Heidegger and Aristotle for breakfast.

I like your description of soul as a symptom of essence. My essence has a very bad cold today and my spirit is merely but of a symptom of my dis-ease!

[Joe Faux]

Originally Posted by marichiko

Does this mean the fox lives on some higher spiritual plane than man? Perhaps. You must ask the foxes, and so far they aren't giving away any secrets.

Interesting point, marichiko.

Perhaps the fox is giving away some secrets. Could our thought processes be merely an instinctual response to learn as much about our environment and leverage it to our benefit, for the success of our species? It may not be tied to an “essence” at all. Rather, it might be almost an autonomic process that strives to comprehend and conquer our world for the survival of future generations.

I am living in the moment and using my assets to stay alive... just like the fox and rabbit.

That would lead me to believe that if an essence existed it would, for the most part, be passively along for the ride. My instinct would be driving the bus most of the time.

I've never quite thought of our desire to learn in that respect. Thanks.

[Catwoman]

JF first of all I think I should apologise. I did not communicate myself clearly and this may have confused things all the more. I needed to shock you somehow, just for you to be aware of the present moment. When something surprises you, when someone does something you don't expect, it shocks you into awareness. Maybe you didn't need this and maybe I went about it the wrong way - either way I think I should reiterate I do not (from your previous posts) consider you a bastard and I do think you listen, more so than many others. Right, now onto your questions.

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

I believe that we exist for a reason that has yet to be understood... For goodness sake, we dream when we're asleep.

There may be an underlying reason or motive behind existence. All I know is that the struggle for answers that occurs in the mind is perpetual has thus far proved fruitless. Every step closer seems a step away; the greatest historical minds have tackled this problem and still we do not know? Either we have worked it out and reject it because it represents the end of our journey (as per marichiko) or we cannot understand it with thought.

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

You're describing “essence” using words like “my” and “our” which would imply you believe and individual “essence” exists for each of us. Therefore, there must be some sort of being or mechanism that determines the percentage of “essence” allotted for each creature. True?

Please don't get caught up in my words. This is difficult enough to explain. My words are not new, and often inprecise. Try to see the meaning through the words. Essence is individual and it is not. 'Allotted essence' is a contradiction in terms. We are all the same, all have the same 'quantity' and are all equally as 'real' as each other. We need to stop attempting to distinguish and separate.

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

I believe we take these lessons on following our Earthly death.

Once I would have agreed with what you say here. That we are learning 'lessons' and these are pathways to progressively higher 'planes' that we achieve beyond the material world. However, I think this is simply an attempt to understand the metaphysical within the linear faculties of our contrived existence - ie meritocracy. This is how our society works and we assume this is the same beyond death. Not only does this enable us to comprehend it in our terms, but also provides the security of individuation we so desire.

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

Ah, but we do have some control over life. If someone is found to be a serial murderer, should we respect the fact they're being true to their “essence”? Should we be allowed to be true to our nature if in fact it harms another? Why should we catch and convict people if they're merely nature's way of thinning the herd?

I was waiting for this to come up. In all honesty - yes, if that is nature, why try to stop it? Whether it is actually nature or not is the real question that needs addressing, hence my condemnation of the death penalty, hence my passion for understanding the root of crime rather than handing out futile and bloodlust-driven punishment. IF that is real, IF that is life, there is nothing you can do about it. So why try?

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

I may recognize that I'm insensitive to other people's needs. I may allow other people to take advantage of me. There may be many reasons why we would want to influence our “essence”. Each of these situations would be an opportunity to grow our "essence".

This is all related to the contrived sense of self, personality, emotion, and nothing to do with essence.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

“With great power comes great responsibility”

That is a most circular and untrue statement. Because yes, you do have power within 'yourself', ultimate power, but the 'responsibility' is shared, along with that power, amongst every living thing. Indeed, every living thing is that power. What do you mean when you speak of responsibility? Cause and effect? Accountability? What use are these things? The same cause will not necessarily produce the same effect so how can you consider responsibility? We do not know! How can we be accountable? And at the same time we do know, all of us, so there is no blame, no division.

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

I've filtered this into “acceptance for what I cannot or do not want to change. It just is.” I'll buy that... to a point. You're presuming that everyone who finds this “true connection” will be good stewards of other people's “essence” in the process.

Lets remove concepts of 'good and bad' from this equation. They are all relative, and as already discussed, we are powerless against it anyway. And it's not 'other peoples essence' - there is only one! Stop trying to individualise it!

Originally Posted by marichiko

Just a couple of thoughts. "But thought is the very limitation you speak of..." Hmmm... Cat, there's your irony. How could you possibly have arrived at your current conclusions other than through your thinking about this question? I would like to submit that it is not our thinking which is our limitation, but the MANNER in which our culture and own personal psychology has inclined, even impelled us to think.

Both. The manner you speak of is the illusion of self-definition. Thought itself is a limitation in that the true self does not exist within the mind. Once you arrive in the 'now' you understand. You are not thinking. By some fortunate glitch we are able to return to this fabricated world and explain it with words (well, I'm trying!) I know what you mean mari, and I can't explain how I arrived at these conclusions, they have just happened over a period of time, whether this is attributable to thought I don't know. I did receive confirmation of my thoughts in this man, Eckhart Tolle. (http://www.eckharttolle.com/) He explains everything I mean much more lucidly than I.

Originally Posted by marichiko

I agree Cat, that in my truest sense I simply am. Yet it is by being in this present moment that I will become what I am in the moments which follow. If I live this very moment to the best of my ability, the moments which follow will take care of themselves. If I disregard this gift of the present and squander it with remorse over the past or undue worry of the future, I squander my days because I am not living IN them.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by marichiko

If I cease to "journey" and feel that I have arrived at some final destination called the "ultimate truth" then I have indeed shut down my essence. One day the actual truth will come knocking at my door with the light to dispel my illusions. I'll awake from my sleep and reply crankily, "Go away! I already know you!" and I'll go back in my room and pull my comfortable blanket of darkness over my ignorant eyes.

Yes, and I have done that myself, twice! How stupid, how fearful I must be of the truth. I felt it. I knew if I accepted it in that moment (twice) I would know. And I rejected it. Perhaps because as soon as I know it will mean leaving this world and this journey. I am preparing myself for this truth, because once you have fully accepted it there is no going back. I just want to make sure I have exhausted all other avenues first. I feel this is my last 'life' on this planet, and it is always hard to say goodbye.

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

Perhaps the fox is giving away some secrets. Could our thought processes be merely an instinctual response to learn as much about our environment and leverage it to our benefit, for the success of our species? It may not be tied to an “essence” at all. Rather, it might be almost an autonomic process that strives to comprehend and conquer our world for the survival of future generations.

Yes! And that is the value of thought, not in trying to comprehend our essence. It is merely a fragment of a form that our essence has created, to enable us to exist in that form.

Originally Posted by Joe Faux

That would lead me to believe that if an essence existed it would, for the most part, be passively along for the ride. My instinct would be driving the bus most of the time.

Allocating 'importance' or significance isn't that useful. Just to recognise it is there is enough. There is a temptation to reduce all this to one 'point' or 'answer' - all I can say now is just live it, live the answer, because you are it. You are truth and life and love. That's 'all', folks.

Originally Posted by Catwoman

Yes, and I have done that myself, twice! How stupid, how fearful I must be of the truth. I felt it. I knew if I accepted it in that moment (twice) I would know. And I rejected it. Perhaps because as soon as I know it will mean leaving this world and this journey. I am preparing myself for this truth, because once you have fully accepted it there is no going back. I just want to make sure I have exhausted all other avenues first. I feel this is my last 'life' on this planet, and it is always hard to say goodbye.

Well, if that is your belief... (looks doubtfully at screen and shrugs shoulders). Who am I to tell you otherwise? So much of what you write mirrors Buddhist philosophy. Have you studied it? The Buddha (who claimed to be neither God, nor a prophet; but merely a human being who was "awake") taught that life consists of much suffering. Suffering is caused by desires arising out of a false sense of self. We want this; we don't want that. We pull things toward us and push other things away. We view the world in a dualistic manner, believing that its all about "us" versus "them." We are living under the delusion that we are a "self" different from other "selfs." How does one define one's self ultimately except through one's thoughts? Thoughts are elusive things, forever changing, coming and going. They arise and then they vanish. How can one possibly define one's self by such elusive criteria? The goal of Buddist meditative practice is to learn to empty the mind of our thoughts, and simply follow the breath - "pneuma" to breathe, from the Greek word for spirit. When we still the chatter of our "monkey mind" we can at long last simply be in this present moment. Our illusions drop away and we see that we are simply a part of a greater whole or "suchness" or the "atman" which might loosely be defined as the universal collective spirit of all living beings.

A person who manages to quiet the chatter of thought and cast aside the illusion of dualism has attained enlightenment. The Budddist saying goes "Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment chop wood and carry water." An enlightened soul does not vanish but continues on in this everyday world. That is the true nature of enlightenment: to be in this world and yet not caught up in its illusions. Once one attains enlightenment, one has two choices: to be done with this world and its sorrows when one finally dies and enter nirvana (heaven) or to take what is called the Bodisattva Vow: "I vow that I will never attain perfect enlightenment until every other living being also becomes enlightened, all suffering finally at end. I vow to return lifetime after lifetime until all beings are free." That's the gist of it, if not the exact wording.

When I first read about the Bodisattva vow, I was stunned. There is no equivalent of it that I am aware of in any other spiritual tradition. What magnificent generosity of spirit to set aside your own "salavation" and come back lifetime after lifetime until every single living being on this earth is freed from suffering! Yet, if you think about it, what else would an enlightened soul do because of this understanding that we are all a part of the greater whole and this "small self" we carry as such a burden has no true validity?

I have no opinion on any possible life after this one. I have no opinion regarding heaven, although I know there is no hell. The power of the Bodisattva Vow for me is what it implies about the manner in which we lead our lives in the here and now. If I am in this thing together with all living beings then how can I do anything else but to act with compassion and practice what the Buddists call "bodichitta" or "loving kindness"?

The Buddha lived for a very long time after he attained enlightenment. His last words to his followers when he was an old man on his deathbed were, "Make of yourselves a light onto THIS world." Exactly. Heaven's here on earth. Its up to each one of us to create this earthly paradise or this living hell with our thoughts, words, and actions.

I hope I haven't bored you with a bunch of stuff you already know, just thought I'd let you know of the parallels with what you've been writing in case you weren't aware of it.

And Joe, I agree. Our human bodies with their animal instincts are inhabited by our spirit which is something quite different.

[flippant]

No Name......hmm...


I think E.M. Cioran said it best,"One always perishes by the self one assumes:to bear a name is to claim an exact mode of collapse."

[ashke]

Catwoman: Are you asking what you think the essence of your Self would be if you were stripped of all external influences?

[Catwoman]

Ah Bruce.

My quote above referred primarily to Brianna & Marichiko's little tiff earlier on in this thread. Read the posts leading up to that comment and you should then understand its context.

If you go back and read my posts slowly, thoroughly, you will see that I agree with you. Of course this is all there is. Now. Not illusions of religion or an original self.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Get off your ass and do something productive. Do something useful. Do something worthwhile and you won't have time for endless circular musing.

Now you're talking. You're absolutely right. Living is not thinking, philosophising, 'musing' (although it would be stupid to ignore our thoughts - we just need to accept them and move on). So get off the internet and go feed some starving children. Go and build a house for the homeless. The thing is, we are living in a life that is dominated by thought/image and is largely cerebral. We have moved away from the essence of survival, reality, and got lost in psychobabble. I am sorry that you cannot differentiate the discussion above from this general 'psychosis' as you quite rightly call it. Without meaning to sound patronising, there is a lot one could learn from truly understanding the message above.

But maybe you already know all of this. Maybe you don't see your personality as all-important, maybe you understand your family is just another evolvement of nature, perhaps you don't buy branded goods or watch pointless TV or concern yourself with anything other than true living - eating, sleeping, sex, stillness.

If you have already put all this into practice I can only admire you.

Originally Posted by ashke

Are you asking what you think the essence of your Self would be if you were stripped of all external influences?

I wasn't really asking. The self is just now. Nothing more nothing less. Coming up with a description of now is most likely impossible and probably irrelevant as long as you're living 'in' it.

Marichiko thanks for the info. I realised some of what I was saying was similar to Buddhism but not to that extent. I don't know about coming back to ease the suffering of every fellow being (although it is a comforting possibility), but I agree:

Originally Posted by marichiko

The power of the Bodisattva Vow for me is what it implies about the manner in which we lead our lives in the here and now.

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment chop wood and carry water" sums it up pretty well.