Fascists

[slang]

Yah, what Bruce said!!!

[lookout123]

wow - i was starting to feel a little lonely out here. thanks for the support guys.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Bullshit, they come like thieves in the night, to take what the can get away with. I suggest you visit South Central Los Angeles, they'd be glad to do a bowl with you........your bowl.

The ones that I like are the ones that cross the border so they can have their kid naturalized by birth (for free) and then they get naturalized by extension.

[Clodfobble]

America could if it chose to support all it's citizens with social security safety nets and free medical treatment and still afford to do the same for the number of immigrants which pass across it's borders, illegally or legally

Sounds like you've got a budget all worked out. How, pray tell, could America do that? Oh right, you're a socialist. You work in theory, not in practice.

[Clodfobble]

I suspect that the poor pay too much and the wealthy too little. You could increase your country's revenues and resources by taxing the wealthy to the same proportion of their incomes that the workingclass pay. As it stands the wealthy I suspect pay a much smaller per centage of their overal income in tax.

You're wrong. The lowest income brackets pay zero taxes. As you move up the ladder, you start to pay a higher percentage of your income. The standard argument goes that the actual DOLLAR AMOUNTS are more important to the lower-income people--because the percentages are staggered. At least you admit you only suspect how it works over here before you start telling us how to fix it.

[DanaC]

What is your highest tax bracket? That is to say, what percentage of their income do they pay in tax?

As an aside, the tax burden on the poor is not just the income tax. In most countries ( including Britain) the poor get hit by flat taxes to a greater extent than the wealthy, that is it represents a greater proportion of their income than it does for the wealthy

Also.....if a country makes proper provsion for it's unemployed or disadvantaged ( paid for by a small raise in the top levels of tax ) it usually pays dividends later. If people are afforded a small income to assist them they spend that income in shops rather than them surviving on a combination of food stamps and crime and disappearing off into the grey economy which is beyond the taxation system and therefore leads to a net loss for the economy. If people are given adequate assistance they are less likely to drift into debilitating depressions and/or dig themselves a hole they cant get out of and are therefore more likely to become fully contributing members of society at a later stage, thereby more than covering the costs incurred in assiting them. They are less likely to fail and therefore more likely to be able to raise their children in such a way that their children may take full advantage of the many opportunities their country can offer them, thereby contributing to their society to such a level as to offset the costs of their earlier care.

I do think it makes very little economic sense to allow large numbers of the populace drift into extreme poverty and crime and then spend a small fortune housing them in prisons and further alienating them from the society to which they could have been contributing, had they been given enough support during the lean times to allow them to get on their feet rather than falling into criminality out of poverty and a lack of hope or inclusion

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

In most countries ( including Britain) the poor get hit by flat taxes to a greater extent than the wealthy, that is it represents a greater proportion of their income than it does for the wealthy

so what? if everyone pays the same % of their income (i.e. everyone pays 7%) the wealthy pay more dollars.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

You're wrong. The lowest income brackets pay zero taxes.

You're only factoring in income taxes. Payroll taxes are regressive. Sales taxes are flat. Tax dodges are primarily for the wealthy.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

You're only factoring in income taxes. Payroll taxes are regressive. Sales taxes are flat. Tax dodges are primarily for the wealthy.

sales taxes are flat dollar . that is harder on the poor. a flat % income tax on anything over $25,000 (and adjustable for inflation) is extremely fair.

and dana - do you not understand that communism doesn't work once people are involved? that is why america is the richest country - because people trying to get ahead are rewarded for their efforts.

no where does it say "life, liberty, and happiness" it says "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" translation - life and freedom are yours. you also have the right to step to the edge and try to fly. you may crash and burn, but you have the right to try. if you penalize those who succeed, you hamper the desire for the next guy to take the leap.

[DanaC]

I think the difference between America and Europe is that in America you have the concept of a classless society in which anyone can make it to the top. The fact that most people actually arent able to take advantage of that doesnt seem to make a difference. In Europe we are under no illusions of a level playing field. We know that those who are on low incomes will likely stay on low incomes and the ones who are wealthy are the ones who will remain wealthy. ....The elite do a fairly bangup job of protecting their interests without me doing it for them. I hear many Americans defending their right to low taxes at the higher levels possibly because they believe that one day they may be the one who is being taxed for their high income. They are protecting a dream they will never be able to participate in. They are defending their elite's right to stay elite. In doing so they are defending people who are the least in need of defense and whose interests are at odds with their own ( imo)

[DanaC]

"and dana - do you not understand that communism doesn't work once people are involved? "
I am not an advocate of communism. What I am talking about is not communism, it isnt even socialism. I advocate capitalism with a social conscience.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I am not an advocate of communism. What I am talking about is not communism, it isnt even socialism. I advocate capitalism with a social conscience.

sounds more like a fan of robin hood than anything. but really, taking from the wealthy to give to the poor is socialism. we do it in small ways here in america. the welfare system that everyone gripes about, either that it is too much or it is too little, is socialist in nature.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I think the difference between America and Europe is that in America you have the concept of a classless society in which anyone can make it to the top. The fact that most people actually arent able to take advantage of that doesnt seem to make a difference. In Europe we are under no illusions of a level playing field.

a level playing field means that everyone has a chance to succeed. we do have that. it doesn't mean that everyone starts from the same point or even that everyone who gives it their all will succeed. success will be harder for some than others - but a large variable is the question of what you consider to be success. for me, it is putting my kid through school, and semi-retirement at 45 without a change in my lifestyle. some people want more, some people want less.
the point is that we have the ability to pick a goal and work toward it. we may not reach it, but that is just the way life goes sometimes.

[wolf]

I've been at work, otherwise I would have been chiming in.

I have an idea.

I'll spring for the concrete. Anyone want to help me patch over the bits on the Statue's base that talk about the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free"? We can cover that over pretty quickly, I'd think.

[jaguar]

It is worth noting the best thing that could be done for most of the world's impoverished would be to lift all the fucking tariffs and trade bans so they could make some money at home. Governments wouldn't waste money propping up inefficient industries and 3rd world nations could compete and trade with the rest of the world on an even platform. Godo cheaper, poor people richer, world a better place.