2016 Election

[xoxoxoBruce]

I think a lot of it is giving the government and the real politicians the finger.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Griff

I get an instinctive skin crawl from the dude .

Oh hell, me too. There's something really amiss with the guy. i don't mean in terms of his politics - I've known plenty of politicians whose ideas I despised but who were personally charismatic. When I see him on tv, my lizard brain tells me to beware.

[classicman]

What Bruce said. Well that and there is NO ONE on team R that is inspiring in any way. They're all trying to remain calm and keep the crazy inside from showing.

[classicman]

Here is the article on Hillary and the email stuff relevant to the FOIA I mentioned.

Veteran reporter Sharyl Attkisson contends the latest batch of emails from former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s private server, released by the U.S. State Department, proves that the “law has been blatantly violated.”

and here is her site

The newly-released batch of Hillary Clinton emails provides further proof that Freedom of Information (FOI) law has been blatantly violated. The documents include material directly responsive to a FOI request I made back in 2012 after the Benghazi terrorist attacks on the U.S. compounds. However, the material was not produced at the time, as required by law. Once again, there appears to be nobody who holds government officials and agencies accountable for their routine violation of this law. So the infractions occur frequently and with impunity. If nobody polices our government officials and agencies–if they are above the law–then how does a lawful society function?

[it]

Well, I can think of few reasons people might like Trump:

1. Speaking his mind:
Plenty of republicans who share his views but live in a cultural mindset that they are not alright to say. I know this because when people used to mistake my libertarian preferences to mean republican, they'd often assume I was part of the club and just spew that shit with me - "I don't believe we should let black people run the country", "I don't believe a women can govern", etc. But most of the time in social situations they try to maneuver around saying it. Can you imagine how cathartic it could feel for them to hear someone saying things like this out loud?

2. Jealousy for his lifestyle:
Plenty of people fantasize about been all powerful billionaires, plenty of people look at his luxury lifestyle with lust, plenty of guys would like his wife for a trophy. Really, who wouldn't want to give children a helicopter ride they'll remember for a lifetime? Where there is jealousy, there is often also admiration, and that can create glasses through which he'd seem a lot more charming then otherwise.

3. Frustration with the current system:
Bruce is right on that one. But it's more then the middle finger, to some extent it can be justified. Every other politician in the race is going to be backed up by lobbyists and interest groups from everywhere. It's kind of ironic, because voting to trump is kind of like jumping over the politician and voting straight to the financial backer, but the result is that he appears uncorruptible. Realistically, he still runs multi billion dollar companies and will be in a position to give political favors with financial returns - something we saw quite a bit in the Bush administration, but this could take it to a whole new level.

[tw]

Work in facilities that are government secure and learn that nobody really knows what is secret and what is not. Many times things get classified secret after the fact. Or because what is common knowledge was once secret. All this secret messages in a server is hooey designed to manipulate us who have no idea what nonsnese this really is.

Just like Swift boating that also manipulated the naive with a lie.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by tw

Work in facilities that are government secure and learn that nobody really knows what is secret and what is not. Many times things get classified secret after the fact. Or because what is common knowledge was once secret. All this secret messages in a server is hooey designed to manipulate us who have no idea what nonsnese this really is.

Just like Swift boating that also manipulated the naive with a lie.

Hooey on you oh naïve one:

Reuters | Alistair Bell and Susan Heavey

... Clinton, the Democratic front-runner for the November 2016 election, did not apologize for her own behavior but said she was wrong not to use a government email account when she was serving as the nation's top diplomat. ...

... "I certainly wish that I had made a different choice and I know why the American people have questions about it," Clinton said. "I take responsibility. I should have had two accounts, one for personal and one for work-related." ...

... The FBI is now investigating the security of the private server and any classified information on it. ...

... Reviews by Reuters of Clinton emails released to the public under a judge's orders found 87 email threads that the State Department has marked to show they include information shared in confidence by foreign government officials, from prime ministers to spy chiefs.

U.S. government regulations say this sort of information, whether written or spoken, must be classified from the start and handled through secure, government-controlled channels.

Clinton said she used the personal email account for convenience and did not give the issue much thought when she took over as secretary of state in 2009. ...

I told you so.

[Big Sarge]

I think this election will be a choice between bad or worse.

[it]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

I think this election will be a choice between bad or worse.

As apposed to which elections in what country and/or alternative universe?

[xoxoxoBruce]

The powers that be, and wish to remain being, are worried.

How can we stop Donald Trump? This is a question Republican Party donors and strategists have been asking themselves for weeks, a report says.

The GOP’s biggest donors are planning to invest scores of millions of dollars in a campaign to take Trump down, the New York Times reported. Republican strategists and donors have gathered groups to launch a smear campaign against Trump and amassed dossiers on his previous support for universal health care and higher taxes, the Times report published on Friday said. They have even discussed to establish a “super PAC” in order to convince conservative voters that the New York billionaire is not one of them. But the big-money Republican network is also extremely worried that any concerted attack against Trump might backfire, given his tendency to counterattack viciously.

Attack viciously? I'd say that's a given.

The wealthy donors have committed hundreds of millions of dollars to shape the Republican primary race and groom a contender who can win the White House back for them, but the maverick Manhattan developer has rocked their boat. They are also finding that money is a devalued currency in the blustery, post-policy campaign designed by Trump, which is not driven expensive advertising campaigns but by social media feuds and unending free publicity, the Times report said.

The Club for Growth, which helped sabotage the populist presidential run of Mike Huckabee, the former Arkansas governor, in 2008, is also planning to attack Trump. Republican presidential hopeful and former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee. The group has spent millions of dollars on intraparty campaigns attacking Republican candidates who deviate from conservative economic orthodoxy.The group’s president, David McIntosh, however, said they were still not clear how to deal with Trump, who is tapping into the raw anger of Republican voters against leaders on Capitol Hill.

link The raw anger in most of the voters, of any stripe, is next step after desperation and exasperation, with the bullshit in congress. But they all forget the white house is the dog & pony show. The real problem is the manipulation of primaries to put puppets from gerrymandered districts in congress, state legislatures, and governor's mansions.

[BigV]

Just to be clear, the problem is for the voters, who are angry. The gerrymandered districts, which are the real problem, are the intentional product of the hard work of the politicians.

[it]

Originally Posted by BigV

Just to be clear, the problem is for the voters, who are angry. The gerrymandered districts, which are the real problem, are the intentional product of the hard work of the politicians.

Eh. Sure - gerrymandering, the electoral college, first-past-the-post /winner-takes-all voting... There are many hindrances on the way to a more democratic system.

But I doubt having a more democratic system in place would solve many of your problems.

Instead they create muddy middle grounds, on one hand it would be much harder for one party to monopolize The House and cockblock every move of the other party, because when things are more democratic there are often smaller parties you can sway instead... On the other hand that becomes the standard procedure since the "ruling party" can't really monopolize it either, so every single move requires a lot of I scratch your back you scratch mine, every executive act becomes an awkward multi-party negotiation, thus voting one way or another on matters that the small party blocks voter's did not cast their votes about and might very well have completely different opinions. A more democratic election system can very easily result in a government that does a worst job in executing the will of the people then otherwise.

p.s.
I am not yet a 100% sure if the above is devil advocating or me changing my mind, I usually argue the exact opposite.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by traceur

p.s.
I am not yet a 100% sure if the above is devil advocating or me changing my mind, I usually argue the exact opposite.

We call it flip-flopping. It's a sport here. Maybe you could go pro.

[it]

Originally Posted by sexobon

We call it flip-flopping. It's a sport here. Maybe you could go pro.

...For politicians, having consistent opinions between the time you run to get elected for describing what you think you should do and the time you actually get elected to do what you think you should do... Makes you a good representative.

For everyone else, not changing your opinion when you find a good enough reason to change it makes you an unreasonable human being.

Except ofcourse, the "for everyone else" bit is stupid, it applies equally to politicians, and creates an interesting result where what makes them good representatives also makes them unreasonable human beings. But just for kicks and/or potential point conveying, and mostly to see how you'd react, I am going to leave the "for everyone else" bit in there despite changing my mind about it mid post.

[sexobon]

Well, I suppose that's alright, as long as it's for anyone else and not for everyone else.