College is not where you find a career. College is where you have fun and drink beer

[Griff]

We're getting to a point with electronic information collection that its probably harder to run a resume con without altering/creating an original record, but do that and its easy living.

[ZenGum]

I've often been asked for certified copies of academic transcripts and/or sighting of the original degree, and that's even for jobs outside universities.

[Clodfobble]

I guess Mr. Clod and I have just always worked for companies with slacker HR departments. Maybe if they'd hired an HR manager with a degree...

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by tw

What exactly is CS? Many college computer programming courses are about teaching Word, Excel, and Access. That's computer science?

So, yes, it is a problem for an educated worker who is 'over qualified'. Especially when a boss only understands Word, Excel, Access, e-mail, and stock quotes. So what really is computer science?

The "science" of computing. Applied math, really. My program was theory heavy. Lots of mathematics, formal methods and systems programming (assemblers, compilers, etc.). We wrote C, LISP, various assemblers and Prolog. My favorite project was creating a VM for a hypothetical machine from the ground up.

We didn't touch the end-user stuff like Office, unless you count writing an HTML parser and an email client in C.

I've had excellent "IT" managers. My current one, the CTO of the company, has an MS CS from CMU. He can handle more information than any single person should, knows our business domain very well, and can still talk PL-theory when it comes up.

* IT is such a weasel term in my mind. It's like lumping butchers and surgeons into the same profession because they both cut meat.

[Undertoad]

Best IT boss I ever had came up through the ranks of the supermarket chain where we worked. He had interest, but not a lot of expertise in computing. But he knew people, and how to manage them, because he had actually had to do it and show results for two decades in the markets.

Most of the time he didn't know exactly what I was doing, but he could see that I was productive and effective. When I came in with a proposal to revolutionize the chain by networking the stores, he didn't know exactly what I was proposing, but he could see the benefit of it and fought for it with the company's board. Together we moved mountains.

Most IT managers are promoted from technical positions and have no idea how to actually manage people. The last director I had, when it came time for the company to move, specifically chose his office because it was furthest away from his people. He was a disaster, and it's partly due to him (and 85% due to his useless CEO boss) that the company no longer exists. He helped drive a wedge between development and marketing --the people who were trying to figure out how to monetize their services. He made it possible for development to become an empire of their own, and eventually empire was everything and development literally stopped producing new products for people take an interest in and buy.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

* IT is such a weasel term in my mind.

Superbly describes the industry problem. When I was learning this stuff, programming languages were never college courses. You were expected to learn that on your own. Course descriptions from Seattle Pacific are apparently still based in that concept. But courses for many computer students today are:
•CIS 100 Introduction to PC's
•CIS 101 Introduction to Spreadsheets
•CIS 102 Intro to Data Base Management
•CIS 103 Intro to Word Processing
•CIS 104 Intro to Desktop Publishing
•CIS 105 Introduction to Windows
•CIS 106 Introduction to the INTERNET
•CIS 108 Introduction to Web Page Design
•CIS 110 Computer Info Sys for Management
•CIS 111 Computer Science I: Programming/Concept
•CIS 113 PC Maintenance and Support
•CIS 114 Web Design and Development
•CIS 117 Computer Aided Drafting I
•CIS 120 Teaching With Technology
•CIS 122 Visual Basic
•CIS 126 Computer Architecture and Organization
•CIS 136 C#
•CIS 140 Client-Side Web Development
•CIS 141 Introduction to Linux
•CIS 142 Linux Administration
•CIS 148 Computer Graphics I
•CIS 151 Systems Analysis and Design
•CIS 155 PC Applications on Networks
•CIS 156 Netware Administration and Support
•CIS 158 Windows Server Administration and Support
•CIS 170 Networking Fundamentals (Cisco Exploration Semester 1)
•CIS 173 Customer Service Skills-Help Desk Professional

None of those would have been acceptable as college courses. Unfortunately another college course is remedial mathematics. To teach basic math that should have been learned in high school.

I cite this course guide because a girl said she was taking Word. They did not teach 'fields' or 'forms' or any other 'programming' features in Word. How is that a computer programming course?

What does an IT boss do when some computer science degrees are devoid of science? A fundamental fact from management. The boss must know how work gets done at least three levels below him. Many do not. The TV show "Undercover Boss" demonstrates that reality (and makes some people angry for the same reason).

How many times has someone said, "But he is an IT guy. He knows computers! He recommends a surge protector." My experience: most IT guys have no idea how electricity works. Most protectors do not even claim to do that protection. But he is an IT guy. He recommended it. Therefore it must be true!

If the boss has no grasp of the technology, then how would he know an educated IT guy from another who is only a tech?

Weasels. BTW, weasels also run many engineering departments. A high number of weasels would explain why so many better educated people cannot find jobs. For example, how many of UT's potential bosses really knew anything about IT?

An innovation that did not happen is not missed by a weasel. An innovation that is impossible with less qualified employees never appears as a loss on any spread sheet. Who is the reason for more job losses four and more years later? An innovation that does happen means even more jobs are lost four plus years later. Innovation and the resulting new jobs cannot happen when weasels are management. Meaning even more educated people have less job opportunities four plus years later.

Weasels are better when road kill. They make an innovative smell. How does one separate a potential educated boss from a potential weasel?

[glatt]

"CIS 106 Introduction to the INTERNET"
ha ha ha ha

[Undertoad]

But once Unisys and RCA stopped producing hardware, telephony became an uninteresting industry, Western Electric devolved, Commodore packed up shop, and half my CS friends moved to California, what real Computer Science was being done in the Philadelphia area?

I should have moved with them, if I wanted to stay in the industry. But it looked like Sysadmin was a pretty good bet, followed by being first into the Internets and whatnot. Now everything is commodity except the huge-ass corporations, when "enterprise-class" means they are still spending million$ on hardware for one reason or another.

I cain't work in a corporation I just cain't

Call it excuses, but those fuckers and I, we never got along

So that's why I went off the grid and tried to forge a different life story for myself, but that sorta hasn't really worked out, and I blame myself but uh I also found out that doing a lot of blaming myself was super-unproductive

Man I like it when a thread can be partly about me

[Perry Winkle]

I assume and hope "CIS" is short for something like Computer & Information Systems. But I wouldn't be surprised if they called it Science. I've seen curricula like that and it makes me sad.

There's nothing wrong per se with teaching specific tools to those who don't need to know more. But to pretend that sort of instruction will make you a strong technologist or builder of things is bad.

Theory for me has been the basis of what most would call a successful career. The languages and tools I have built and used are a byproduct of the practice of applying that theory. Theory is what I think should be taught as the core of any "science", even though the theory won't prepare you for a career applying it more than incidentally.

There are so many things about my career and work life that disappoint me or make me outright angry. People disregarding good engineering practice (usually just because of laziness!) and such. Mostly it's stuff I can change. I looked back at some of PZ's posts earlier in the thread and I think I'm finally prepared to force some of those changes.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

People disregarding good engineering practice (usually just because of laziness!) and such.

Really? Laziness more than ignorance? That's interesting... and depressing.

[Clodfobble]

Regarding tw's list of courses, many community colleges offer courses within a department that are not necessarily part of a degree in that department.

Many adults' computer skills are lacking. A young admin assistant may need a course in how to use Excel, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. And what department should that course go under, if not CIS? That doesn't mean that if she takes all the classes in tw's list, she's going to walk out with a Computer Science degree.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Really? Laziness more than ignorance? That's interesting... and depressing.

It is depressing and infuriating.

I can't count the number of times I've told people (with the research and analysis to back it up) that something will fail early and spectacularly and then been disregarded. It doesn't seem to matter if it's a small effort to mitigate up front or the cost of the failure would be particularly high.

In my current and past situations I haven't had the power to force the right thing to happen. That's the core of what I want to change about my career. Move up to a lead or CTO spot, join a team where engineering is part of the culture, or just start my own company where that shit won't fly.

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

In my current and past situations I haven't had the power to force the right thing to happen. That's the core of what I want to change about my career. Move up to a lead or CTO spot, join a team where engineering is part of the culture, or just start my own company where that shit won't fly.

You can fight the good fight with swords held high. But I'd bet you still won't win. Mainly because you are fighting corporate culture, not department culture.

What's much easier is to find a company with the right corporate culture.

And the easiest way to do that is to find a company where software is a profit center, not a cost center. When the software you work on makes the company money. It is much easier to push them to do the right thing.

I also personally believe that life is much better at a midsize privately owned company. You won't get stock options. But you also won't get whipsawed by quarterly reports.

You might also want to look at the Spolsky Employer test. Spolsky is full of himself. But he is really introspective about the software development process and practices what he preaches. He doesn't post often these days. But if you haven't read them. Go back and read his articles that sound interesting.

[Pete Zicato]

If you don't have an interest in programming or admin anymore, then that's that.

But if it's just the corporate bullshit, I would recommend the same thing I said to PW. Look for a midsize company that's privately owned. It's a strategy that worked for me. (Until they get bought up by giants. Then it's time to leave.)

[tw]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

It is depressing and infuriating.

Listed were courses for "Computer Information Science". But keep it in perspective. Those are college degrees for technicians. Not college courses. How would a boss (ie as demonstrated by "Uncover Boss") know the difference between that technician degree and a degree from Seattle Pacific? He wouldn't. Both are called Computer Science. Too many IT managers have insufficient technical knowledge. Only know from word association. Too many IT managers got their jobs based in first impressions. By telling their boss what their boss wanted to hear. He was buying 'miracle' machines. So the IT guy who always smiles must be good?

That is, for example, why bankruptcies are so important. Same reason why militaries, that periodically fight a war, weed out incompetents. Bankruptcies or warfare are often how to identify the better trained and educated.

So, back to this topic. Why would so many companies not hire better trained and educated employees? One proposal says that bossed have no idea how the work gets done. And therefore hire mostly based in first impressions or the size of tits.

Another proposal says that more jobs are only created only when better trained employees are hired. Only then will innovation exist and create more jobs. On spread sheets, profits are higher when less trained and less paid employees are hired. In reality, profits are higher when better trained and more expensive employees are hired. Then the resulting innovation creates more jobs and more new products.

But that is not what is taught in business schools. Innovation and the value of a better educated employee has no entry on any spread sheet. Better trained employee only increases costs. Another reason why I even met a mechanical engineer who is driving a truck. Another who had even programmed in the language 'B'. In every case, people without jobs because they are overqualified. And no longer want to jump through hoops just to be productive. Means more jobs not created and available to 20 years olds.

How would a business school graduate determine the different between that Word educated 'computer science major' and one educated in Seattle Pacific? He can't. None of that is found on his spread sheet. Another example of why 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management - when management is as naive as those in "Undercover Boss".

Others also noted ignorant managers who would hide out in executive offices and executive dining rooms. We all know why companies such as Intel prospered. Top management (ie Andy Grove) had his office in a cubical surrounded by other employees also in cubicals. Only then could innovation happen. Other companies eliminated executive dining rooms. So that executives ate with all other employees. So that innovation could happen. Since the only thing that creates jobs is innovation.

Another is UT's story. Innovators must never do any politics. That is the VP's primary job. To run interference on the technical incompetents who play politics rather than learn how things really work. So that innovators can do the only thing essential to a company's survival - innovation. Another example of what is so essential to create jobs. VPs must work for and protect employees so that employees can innovate. Then more and higher paying jobs are created.

But again, none of this can happen (better jobs created) when the boss has no idea how the work gets done.

Explained are factor that create (or destroy) good jobs. And also how to identify companies that what to make better products rather than foolishly make profits.