Anonymous Mom, No Dads, + 14 - Page 4

OnyxCougar · 02-06-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Onyx...I'm just curious: how do you feel about assisted suicide for terminally ill patients?

Hmm. I never really thought deeply about it. Off the cuff I would say that I don't agree that suicide should be against the law. I think if you want to kill yourself, you should have to right to do that.

That being said, I don't think anyone has the right to involve another person into it, (ie kill me). If you want to off yourself, go home and take some pills, don't get your doctor in trouble.

But again, I haven't thought deeply about it, so I may change my answer at some point.

OnyxCougar · 02-06-2009, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Don't put your reproduction in the hands of doctors then.

So those women who are infertile...too damn bad for you? So...you can't go to a doctor for abortion now?

Quote:

Mebbe it's a European thing.
Not being as religious, we tend not to have a deal with the soul kinda thing. Which is why stem cell research is not such a big deal over here.

I'm not talking about a soul kind of thing. I'm talking about doctors not having a right to make life decisions for me. If I want 30 kids, and I can pay for the procedure, that's all my doctor needs to know. It's not his right to make a moral judgement on my life. I expect him to tell me that's not a good idea for my body, and explain the physical risks of carrying all those children, but I don't expect him to say "No, I won't do it because I don't think it's good for the planet." or whatever else bullshit reason. It's not his call. He can choose not to treat me, and that's ok, I'll find a doctor who will.

Same can be said for abortion. If a woman went to a doctor for an abortion and he told her no, she can't have one on moral grounds, you'd be having a fit. If she has a right to an abortion, she also has a right to have as many kids as she can.

Shawnee123 · 02-06-2009, 12:28 PM

Thanks. I was curious if you were against assisted suicide, then that would be sort of like believing a doctor has a moral obligation to not help a person in that situation, thus a doctor imposing his or her morality on the patient.

That's where I was coming from.

Pie · 02-06-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I expect him to tell me that's not a good idea for my body, and explain the physical risks of carrying all those children...

I can certainly agree with that. The problem here is that the doctor did go ahead and endanger both her life and the lives of her soon-to-be children by implanting 8 embryos in her.

Small family, big family - not the doc's business. 8 embryos at one time - violation of medical ethics!

OnyxCougar · 02-06-2009, 01:29 PM

From my understanding, they implant multiple eggs as a matter of course, and a fraction (if any) actually survive.

It's very possible he implanted 8 but expected 1 or 2 (if any) to make it.

Of course, it's all speculation, but I'm going on the assumption he wouldn't risk his medical license for this.

DanaC · 02-06-2009, 01:30 PM

A doctor isn't a mechanic. You don't just pay your money and tell him what to do. He has to make a judgement call as to whether he is assisting or harming his patient by continuing. Someone who is addicted to plastic surgery can sit and listen to all the advice in the world and then decide to have surgery that is unnecessary and potentially harmful. It's entirely the doctor's decision as to whether he wishes to be complicit in that self-harm.

Wanting to have babies is all very well. Implanting large numbers of embryos at a time and risking a potentially dangerous multiple pregnancy was a very dubious course of action for a doctor to take.

Shawnee123 · 02-06-2009, 01:31 PM

I can't give specifics, but all articles I've read concerning this issue point to the fact that most fertility experts believe they implanted way more than was ethical. Also, following your reasoning, they must have implanted a dozen or more.

OnyxCougar · 02-06-2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

A doctor isn't a mechanic.

A doctor is absolutely a mechanic, except the vehicle is a human body, the most sophisticated, complex machine ever designed.

Quote:

You don't just pay your money and tell him what to do. He has to make a judgement call as to whether he is assisting or harming his patient by continuing. Someone who is addicted to plastic surgery can sit and listen to all the advice in the world and then decide to have surgery that is unnecessary and potentially harmful. It's entirely the doctor's decision as to whether he wishes to be complicit in that self-harm.

She paid her money, and they performed the procedure. They SHOULD NOT make a decision to treat based upon THEIR idea of acceptable.

Quote:

Wanting to have babies is all very well. Implanting large numbers of embryos at a time and risking a potentially dangerous multiple pregnancy was a very dubious course of action for a doctor to take.

Again, I believe that's a standard procedure, which is why all these women are having four, quints, sextuplets, etc.

Clodfobble · 02-06-2009, 01:59 PM

OC, you of all people (being pro-life) should believe that the health of the babies comes into play. What if a parent wanted to pay for ill-advised plastic surgery on their 5-year-old kid? The doctor advised her on the risks to her body of carrying eight babies, but there are very real risks to the eight babies as well. (And you can't say her decision is equivalent to having the right to abortion, because these children are going to be born, with a high risk of birth defects and other disabilities.)

OnyxCougar · 02-06-2009, 02:11 PM

I'm pro life, but I'm also pro personal responsiblity. I will *not* force other people to conform to *my* standard of right and wrong.

And I think this issue does relate to abortion. So...it's ok to kill unborn babies, but not ok to let deformed babies live? That's eugenics.

I do, however, understand the point you're trying to make. Was it right for her to irresponsibly have more babies? Not in my view, but my view is irrelevant.

That still doesn't change my point: it's not the doctor's call to make. In fact, he told her to abort some of them when he realized she was carrying so many, due to the risks of deformation, etc, (which I give him credit for) and she declined (which she has the right to do).

In short, this doctor did everything right. The brood mare, however, needs a reality check.

But do NOT put doctors in the position of treating a patient based upon their moral views. That is a long, steep, slippery slope.

(eta)
Once the doctor realized that she was carrying 8, if he was able to enforce his morals (or medical opinion) against her will, he would have terminated a few of those babies. What gives him the right to make that call?

DanaC · 02-06-2009, 02:16 PM

It's not ok for doctors to induce a medical problem.

Shawnee123 · 02-06-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

A doctor is absolutely a mechanic, except the vehicle is a human body, the most sophisticated, complex machine ever designed.

She paid her money, and they performed the procedure. They SHOULD NOT make a decision to treat based upon THEIR idea of acceptable.

Again, I believe that's a standard procedure, which is why all these women are having four, quints, sextuplets, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

I can't give specifics, but all articles I've read concerning this issue point to the fact that most fertility experts believe they implanted way more than was ethical. Also, following your reasoning, they must have implanted a dozen or more.

Hello? Am I on?

OnyxCougar · 02-06-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

It's not ok for doctors to induce a medical problem.

Then they shouldn't do abortions, either. It's a fact that over 65% of abortions cause complications (Infections, scar tissue, etc) in the mother.

You can't have it both ways.

OnyxCougar · 02-06-2009, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Hello? Am I on?

Yes you are, I was responding mostly to Dana on those points that I quoted.

classicman · 02-06-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I'm talking about doctors not having a right to make life decisions for me.

Many doctors make that decision every day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If a woman went to a doctor for an abortion and he told her no, she can't have one on moral grounds, you'd be having a fit. If she has a right to an abortion, she also has a right to have as many kids as she can.

I wouldn't. But I'm a guy. I have no problem with a doctor making a non life/death decision on his own moral grounds.

But thats just "off the cuff " as you put it.

02-06-2009, 12:28 PM	#48
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	Thanks. I was curious if you were against assisted suicide, then that would be sort of like believing a doctor has a moral obligation to not help a person in that situation, thus a doctor imposing his or her morality on the patient. That's where I was coming from. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

02-06-2009, 01:29 PM	#50
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	From my understanding, they implant multiple eggs as a matter of course, and a fraction (if any) actually survive. It's very possible he implanted 8 but expected 1 or 2 (if any) to make it. Of course, it's all speculation, but I'm going on the assumption he wouldn't risk his medical license for this. __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

02-06-2009, 01:31 PM	#52
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	I can't give specifics, but all articles I've read concerning this issue point to the fact that most fertility experts believe they implanted way more than was ethical. Also, following your reasoning, they must have implanted a dozen or more. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

02-06-2009, 01:59 PM	#54
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	OC, you of all people (being pro-life) should believe that the health of the babies comes into play. What if a parent wanted to pay for ill-advised plastic surgery on their 5-year-old kid? The doctor advised her on the risks to her body of carrying eight babies, but there are very real risks to the eight babies as well. (And you can't say her decision is equivalent to having the right to abortion, because these children are going to be born, with a high risk of birth defects and other disabilities.) __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal

02-06-2009, 02:11 PM	#55
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	I'm pro life, but I'm also pro personal responsiblity. I will not force other people to conform to my standard of right and wrong. And I think this issue does relate to abortion. So...it's ok to kill unborn babies, but not ok to let deformed babies live? That's eugenics. I do, however, understand the point you're trying to make. Was it right for her to irresponsibly have more babies? Not in my view, but my view is irrelevant. That still doesn't change my point: it's not the doctor's call to make. In fact, he told her to abort some of them when he realized she was carrying so many, due to the risks of deformation, etc, (which I give him credit for) and she declined (which she has the right to do). In short, this doctor did everything right. The brood mare, however, needs a reality check. But do NOT put doctors in the position of treating a patient based upon their moral views. That is a long, steep, slippery slope. (eta) Once the doctor realized that she was carrying 8, if he was able to enforce his morals (or medical opinion) against her will, he would have terminated a few of those babies. What gives him the right to make that call? __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt Last edited by OnyxCougar; 02-06-2009 at 02:17 PM.

02-06-2009, 01:30 PM	#51
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	A doctor isn't a mechanic. You don't just pay your money and tell him what to do. He has to make a judgement call as to whether he is assisting or harming his patient by continuing. Someone who is addicted to plastic surgery can sit and listen to all the advice in the world and then decide to have surgery that is unnecessary and potentially harmful. It's entirely the doctor's decision as to whether he wishes to be complicit in that self-harm. Wanting to have babies is all very well. Implanting large numbers of embryos at a time and risking a potentially dangerous multiple pregnancy was a very dubious course of action for a doctor to take.

02-06-2009, 02:16 PM	#56
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	It's not ok for doctors to induce a medical problem.

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