A historically significant day for Australians

[DanaC]

I am not responsible for the actions of distant generations

Distant? How distant?

Certainly in terms of the 'Lost Generations' of aboriginal people, we really aren't talking such a long time ago.

I think it's a very good and civilised move on the part of the Australian government.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Maybe this will cost money, but whatever that cost is, I say it is a small price to pay for giving Aboriginal people back their dignity.

Probably more important: will it make them a better member of the assimilated nation called Australia? Probably the most difficult part of correcting such wrongs is to make the discriminated a productive and welcome member of that society.

Will this accomplish the goal? I have not a clue. But I suspect that most important objective is the ultimate intent.

The Gods Must Be Crazy is a favorite movie. The aboriginal is the only sane person as he disposes of that coke bottle. But only he (and maybe the coke bottle) knows it.

[DucksNuts]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Maybe this will cost money, but whatever that cost is, I say it is a small price to pay for giving Aboriginal people back their dignity.

Dignity didnt come with a price tag last I heard.

The first compensation claim was starting before the apology was even finished.

How does this help the young Aboriginal girls being raped in the NT by their relatives, the alcohol abuse and the other problems that are occurring now.

I just think the money would be better spent on the issues of TODAY, than dwelling on something that was a law and that is out of control.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by DucksNuts

Dignity didnt come with a price tag last I heard.

The first compensation claim was starting before the apology was even finished.

How does this help the young Aboriginal girls being raped in the NT by their relatives, the alcohol abuse and the other problems that are occurring now.

I just think the money would be better spent on the issues of TODAY, than dwelling on something that was a law and that is out of control.

People, regardless of who they are have the right to seek compensation if they feel they deserve it. It is for the legal system to decide if there is any paid or not. I'm fairly ambivalent about that particular point at this stage. There are good arguments for both sides of the fence.

How does it help the social problems faced by Aboriginal people? My hope is that in time, if Aboriginal people are able to find their pride as a people things will change. As I've said previously, this is the first step in the road, but I believe this is a very long road we are facing as a nation. There's no quick fixes. It requires dedication and perseverance by all of us to ensure better outcomes for all our future generations, both indigenous and non indigenous.

[lookout123]

Aboriginal people are able to find their pride as a people things will change.

If they need outside affirmation to find their pride they're too fucked to ever find it anyway.

If they need an apology to decide to move on, then the apology won't change anything either.

If they are mired in a miserable existence because someone handed their grandfather a bottle of liquor then reparations won't help them one bit.

What you do with your life is a personal choice.

[Ibby]

Why should the fact that an apology solves nothing in and of itself mean anything?

An apology hurts nobody. Reparations, on the level of the government, hurt nobody any worse than the 3.8 million they spent trying to brainstorm ways to cut useless spending.


Some things aren't about exactly how much good they'll concretely do, about how much some arguably empty words and speeches accomplish... some things are just plain old manners. Apologizing is the right thing to do because its just nice. Don't gimme some bullshit about how its not your fault what your ancestors did; if a guy came up to you on the street and told you that your dad wronged him, you wouldn't haughtily tell him that its not your fault, even though it isn't your fault, you just apologize for his misbehavior and move on. Cause it's just good manners. Speak for those who can't speak for themselves anymore, and apologize for their sake.


Apologizing to those that your ancestors wronged isn't for the wronged's sake, it's for your ancestor's sake.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Reparations, on the level of the government, hurt nobody any worse than the 3.8 million they spent trying to brainstorm ways to cut useless spending.

Except for the fact that they set a legal precedent for anyone and everyone who has ever had something unfair done to them to sue for reparations.

[Aliantha]

The part about this that I find so sad is that so many people can only see the bad that can come of it and not the good. All they can think of is 'what will I have to give up if this happens in my country' or 'I'm not responsible for what my ancestors did'.

If that's the case, stop your going on about how wonderful your constitution is. You didn't write it. Stop saying what great men your founding fathers were. You're not them. Stop saying how fantastic it was when you beat the British. You weren't there.

If you want to celebrate and take credit for the good things your ancestors did, you must also be willing to accept that they did some pretty bad shit too, and some time sooner or later, you're going to have to acknowledge it.

[classicman]

It happened, it was a looooong time ago - lets all move on. It didn't happen to you and I didn't do it so whats the point in dwelling on it? Reparations are a waste of time because all partied involved are long dead.

[Aliantha]

No, all parties are not long dead. In fact, there are plenty still in the land of the living.

[classicman]

Not here there aren't. In Australia? Yes and I've long ago said good for you and them. I was referring to the US.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Seriously get over your self hate. Quit buying the hype that all these people are living lives of horror and you are to blame because you are white.

Where is my self hate? When have I ever said I feel guilty for being white? What I do realize is that all the advantages I have in life is a result of what my people's ancestors did to others who children are still at a disadvantage to this day. If that is self hate, the idea that everyone should have equal treatment, then fuck you.

Would it help if I walked down the street and grabbed a random mexican or indian and offered them an apology and cash?

Stop with the stupid remarks, both you and I know that wouldn't accomplish anything except making an individual feel better about what an entire group did.

How much? And what exactly would I be apologizing for? That someone they never met, their great great great grandparent might have had a bad dealing with my great great great grandparent who I never met?

Where did I ever say an apology was needed from an individual? The only way to solve racial problems is when a society decides to get rid of a supremacist doctrine. And no, it isn't just that their triple great grandparent got fucked by your triple great grandparent. It is that other people are still hurt and you still benefit from what your triple great grandparent did.

Being aware of the past does not mean you have to dwell in it. I certainly don't expect any apologetic feelings from dana or Sundae Girl, and I'm pretty sure that someone from the UK might have wronged someone from Scotland at some point. This dwelling in the past has to stop if you ever want to move on.

The reason no apology is needed from Britain to Scotland is because the people in Scotland are not currently at a disadvantage from what happened in the past as opposed to the natives in the United States or Aboriginals in Australia.

Originally Posted by Classicman

But I don't treat them as savages - never have, never will.

Individuals do not matter; it is how the group treats them. The Nazi's were anti-semitic but does that mean every German was? No. Whites in America are treated and looked at as more civilized than natives, hence why I said what I did.

And also, I live in Minnesota, so I do see more racism against natives than usual.

My question is: How much culpability should I bear? What is my level of responsibility, or my children's? I think ZERO, and giving one dime to the Indians could be argued as depriving my children from that "money" or whatever.

How much culpability should you bear? How can you measure that? It certainty can’t be measured in money. The fact is that you benefit and people of color are hurt from what happened in the past so you can either move on and treat people of color like equals and do a small part that probably won’t change anything or you can fully embrace white supremacy and probably won’t change anything. You as an individual can only help or hurt individuals unless you can somehow change the system so just accept what happened and live your life and try not to embrace white supremacy.

Monetary reparations won’t do anything in my opinion so lets stop talking about them. The best way to repay people of color for what our ancestors did is to allow them to create their own institutions and have equal opportunity, which unfortunately will be seen as a threat to many whites, and the general public treating people of color as equals to whites.

Originally Posted by Lookout123

You can keep on living in your guilt ridden world, I'll sleep quite comfortably in my shame free slumber.

You don’t have to have my stance on the issue and feel guilty. If I was guilty I would give up my whiteness to an unneeded extreme by seriously breaking social norms in terms of dress and actions. Of course I wouldn’t be helping anyone and just hurt myself, and would only affect my view of myself.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

In America I totally get it. Just don't ask me for money because of it.

As I said before, monetary help won’t do anything. If reparations are going to work, it has to be in the form of institutions and equal opportunity, which I hope you are not opposed too.

Originally Posted by Classicman

It happened, it was a looooong time ago - lets all move on. It didn't happen to you and I didn't do it so whats the point in dwelling on it? Reparations are a waste of time because all partied involved are long dead.

It doesn’t matter what happened how long ago, all that matter is how are people affected by it today. If no one is affected by it anymore, than there is no need to dwell on it but if people are negatively affected by it today, than it is natural to dwell on it and find out realistic ways we can prevent their children from being negatively affected by it.

Lets put it this way Classicman. If we are running a race in 2 months and I break your leg, and rehurt it every week after that and by the time the race comes around, you are still at a disadvantage. I can say “it was two months ago” all I want but the fact is that you are still hurt from it and we do not have equality. Just acknowledge the fact that we are not equal and live your life without hurting anyone in the future because the wound should naturally heal if given enough time and a chance to heal.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Only their parents can prevent the children from being negatively affected by the past.

[piercehawkeye45]

Somehow I doubt that, especially since many of their mothers are working two jobs without a father!

There are other variables in a child's life besides parents too. Parents may be the most important, but there are other factors. To just completely ignore intelligence level, personality, social expectations, personal traumas, teachers, friends, social environment, and school's effectiveness is just foolish.

[classicman]

Bullshit PS - there are more friggin programs to help the disadvantaged and the vast majority of those programs are being abused by those who were intended to benefit from them. Its time to stop trying to make up for whatever happened a hundred years ago, look forward and move on. To completely try and make up for something that one really cannot is foolish and although your idealistic view is commendable, its just not going to, nor should it happen.