Ending God's Tax Exempt Status

[Cloud]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

Except for homeless shelters and Salvation Armys here I see no community benefit.

hmm. Perhaps a more rounded education might help? Churches are active in youth organizations, disaster relief, immigration assistance, senior care, education, victim assistance, family counseling . .. the list goes on.

I'm not saying there aren't abuses of the system by churches. I'm troubled by the attitude that seems to be prevalent here that "religion is bad; churches should be abolished." I don't like organized religion myself, but that's because my spirituality is private--between the gods and myself. But I mean, come on-- to say they serve no purpose or provide the community no benefit is inaccurate.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Cloud

hmm. Perhaps a more rounded education might help? Churches are active in youth organizations, disaster relief, immigration assistance, senior care, education, victim assistance, family counseling . .. the list goes on.

I'm not saying there aren't abuses of the system by churches. I'm troubled by the attitude that seems to be prevalent here that "religion is bad; churches should be abolished." I don't like organized religion myself, but that's because my spirituality is private--between the gods and myself. But I mean, come on-- to say they serve no purpose or provide the community no benefit is inaccurate.

I don't understand your first statement about a rounded education.

You should be aware though that the Salvation Armys and homeless shelters are Christain organizations. I've done plenty of missions in my youth where we helped out in shelters.

At one time, recently, the Mormon Church was (if ranked) the third largest business in the US.

[DanaC]

I think it depends a lot on which branch of the Church you're dealing with.

If you are talking about the Evangelical strands of Christianity, much of their development included concepts similar to the Methodist faiths: that to work hard is Godly, that to acquire a better standing in the community and business world was a sign that you had worked hard and were therefore Godly. Now, that may well not be what's going on in the Evangelical sects now...but from such a base it's easy to see how gaining wealth and 'doing well' was not and is not seen as contradicting their faith.

In the Catholic confession, however, whilst it was always acceptable that The Church gain status and wealth, in individual terms they had more apostolic assumptions of their clergy.

rk, I am as hostile to religion as the next dwellar (especially if the next dwellar is you :P) but we need to be careful not to make assumptions of the whole, when it's a much more fragmented picture than that.

Across the world, your own country included, much of the charity and outreach work that helps some of the world's most vulnerable people, is conducted by well meaning Christians, with their Church as the organisation funding, managing and providing that exercise. Those are genuine charities. There are no doubt churches which are run like businesses and preachers who have made themselves wealthy. They are not charities. But by the same token, there are secular charities which are scams and yet get tax breaks.

I do think churches should have to prove their charitable status like any other organisation. (though you wouldn't be able to impose that on the Catholic Church without causing a massive worldwide argument).

[Spexxvet]

Churches sell redemption, forgiveness of sins, the path to Heaven. They should be taxed.

I would have more compassion for churches were it not for how those who attend weekly service, but don't "donate" are treated.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Churches sell redemption, forgiveness of sins, the path to Heaven. They should be taxed.

I would have more compassion for churches were it not for how those who attend weekly service, but don't "donate" are treated.

You are so full of shit, Spexx. First off, the Catholic church used to sell indulgences. They do not anymore, and the Protestant church never did. So your assertion that churches "sell" redemption is a stupid metaphor at best. Secondly, no church I have ever been in treated those who did not tithe any differently than those who did. The whole thing is very anonymous in fact--and even moreso nowadays, when any church of moderate size allows giving to be done online if the churchgoer prefers.

Rkz, I'd like to know if you see any differences between a non-profit community theatre troupe and a non-profit church. Should the non-profit theatre troupe be taxed as well?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Secondly, no church I have ever been in treated those who did not tithe any differently than those who did. The whole thing is very anonymous in fact--and even moreso nowadays, when any church of moderate size allows giving to be done online if the churchgoer prefers.

I can't speak to how non-tithers are treated, but online donations are much less anonymous than collection boxes, or even baskets.

Rkz, I'd like to know if you see any differences between a non-profit community theatre troupe and a non-profit church. Should the non-profit theatre troupe be taxed as well?

If a church would qualify as non-profit under the same rules as a theatre troupe, then there's no need for the religious component for non-profit status.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

You are so full of shit, Spexx. First off, the Catholic church used to sell indulgences. They do not anymore, and the Protestant church never did. So your assertion that churches "sell" redemption is a stupid metaphor at best. Secondly, no church I have ever been in treated those who did not tithe any differently than those who did. The whole thing is very anonymous in fact--and even moreso nowadays, when any church of moderate size allows giving to be done online if the churchgoer prefers.

Rkz, I'd like to know if you see any differences between a non-profit community theatre troupe and a non-profit church. Should the non-profit theatre troupe be taxed as well?

If it turns out they are making a profit, FUCK YES!. As an actor I have seen this happen and people getting rich off of actors who do not get paid... it is disgusting.

rk, I am as hostile to religion as the next dwellar

I have said before, I am not hosile toward religion as long as it does not break the three: Do not break the threshold of church and state IN ANY WAY (that includes lobbying your mythology to any laws)
Do not abuse children with ideas about eternal torture, child abuse of any kind should be prosecuted by law at all times.
Do not go door-to-door or phone unsolicited, this should be illegal for anyone, not just religion.

The tax thing, honestly I poorly worded the title of this thread now that I see that churches are only about half of those that need their tax exempt status removed.

Being "active in" and qualifying as an Actual Charity are two things that do not meet anywhere in the middle.
I have been active in charity my whole life.
I have also BEEN a charity, for three months out of the year for three years in a row... trust me... they are NOT the same thing, not by a LONG SHOT.

Originally Posted by jester

I believe there are several churches whose expenditures may be questionable - most of those are larger churches, as in 500 & up in congregation. However, smaller churches, most of the pastors have a secular job to help support their families, because "the giving" pays just the basic bills. As stated earlier, you can't possibly group "all" churches or even other non-profit organizations into one lump sum - they are not all the same and as such are not "run" the same.

And their taxes would reflect that.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

You are so full of shit, Spexx. First off, the Catholic church used to sell indulgences. They do not anymore, and the Protestant church never did. So your assertion that churches "sell" redemption is a stupid metaphor at best. Secondly, no church I have ever been in treated those who did not tithe any differently than those who did. The whole thing is very anonymous in fact--and even moreso nowadays, when any church of moderate size allows giving to be done online if the churchgoer prefers...

Why the attack?

Then what does a church do? On Sunday morning, you goes in, you pays your money, you're forgiven and on track to heaven. I wasn't talking about indulgences, I was talking about fee for service. You pay your donation, and in return, you get......what?

Our church gave us a statement of our donations at the end of every year, so it was by no means anonymous, and they printed the previous week's total take in the current week's program.

Exactly, even though the Salvation army and some of the foreign aid organizations have had their problems, most of them, now, have very good books and would have any issue with this.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

If a church would qualify as non-profit under the same rules as a theatre troupe, then there's no need for the religious component for non-profit status.

I agree, and I'm honestly not sure how the rules are different. I'm merely pointing out a logical conclusion of rkzenrage's assertions that all non-profits should give a provable base percentage to charity. There are valuable social services that many non-profits can provide without being direct charities.

[DanaC]

Unless as a nation you are prepared to do what it takes to resolve problems like homelessness, drug-abuse, poverty and assorted other ills, I suggest you allow some of those churches to continue their outreach work. They take up a lot of the slack in the system. There are no doubt many are deserving of greater scrutiny, but just as the Church has historically been a force for obedience and acceptance, it's also often been the one organisation that has sought to ameliorate some of the worst conditions for poor communities.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Unless as a nation you are prepared to do what it takes to resolve problems like homelessness, drug-abuse, poverty and assorted other ills, I suggest you allow some of those churches to continue their outreach work. They take up a lot of the slack in the system. There are no doubt many are deserving of greater scrutiny, but just as the Church has historically been a force for obedience and acceptance, it's also often been the one organisation that has sought to ameliorate some of the worst conditions for poor communities.

Just look at Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Unless as a nation you are prepared to do what it takes to resolve problems like homelessness, drug-abuse, poverty and assorted other ills, I suggest you allow some of those churches to continue their outreach work. They take up a lot of the slack in the system. There are no doubt many are deserving of greater scrutiny, but just as the Church has historically been a force for obedience and acceptance, it's also often been the one organisation that has sought to ameliorate some of the worst conditions for poor communities.

Allow?
This changes none of that.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

If it turns out they are making a profit, FUCK YES!. As an actor I have seen this happen and people getting rich off of actors who do not get paid... it is disgusting.

What if they use the extra money to grow--to buy better costumes, rent a bigger theatre space, put out more advertisements to get more audience members?

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Why the attack?

Because your comment seemed flippant and directly intended to offend. I didn't realize you honestly had experienced such things in a church.

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Then what does a church do? On Sunday morning, you goes in, you pays your money, you're forgiven and on track to heaven. I wasn't talking about indulgences, I was talking about fee for service. You pay your donation, and in return, you get......what?

Our church gave us a statement of our donations at the end of every year, so it was by no means anonymous, and they printed the previous week's total take in the current week's program.

No offense, but your church sucked. Printing the total amount given is very different than a list of who gave it. In most churches, less than 50% of the regular attendees give any money at all. But those who do give want to know their money is being used accountably, which is one reason yearly budgets and giving amounts are published--not necessarily to guilt people into giving more, but to show where the money's actually going.

The "fee for service" is actually a valid idea--you are paying for the weekly comfort, the marriage ceremonies, the funerals, the marital counseling, the childcare while you participate... you are also contributing to some amount of direct charity work, though how much varies widely with each church, as rkz has been pointing out. But forgiveness is absolutely not a function of church attendance or monetary donation, in the Protestant faith at any rate.