Politics ad absurdam

Yeah, thanks, I added "Left", or are They gonna' come and get me for the last statement? LOL!

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Yeah, thanks, I added "Left", or are They gonna' come and get me for the last statement? LOL!

Well, maybe The Daily Kos, but that's just the risk you run, hey?

[DanaC]

Really, so the BNP can have a rally with White Law playing and the crowd giving the Nazi salute in the UK and no one says boo?
I don't think so.

The BNP hold regular rallies, at which they may, should they wish to do so, raise their hands in nazi salutes and listen to white nationalist music.It's not illegal for them to do so as long as they have the relevant permissions for holding a rally. Just like any other political group. I know, because I've been there on the counter-demos, and have seen the police force protect their right to do so.

Individual local authorities, may refuse to grant permission for a rally/event to be held on council property (ie. the public park, or town centre) if they can reasonably show that it may lead to public disorder and risk. Individual authorities may also have a blanket ban on using their facilities for political purposes (my own authority refused permission to a group of Falun Gong monks who wished to raise awareness of human rights abuses in China, by rallyng in the centre of town)

Rage, I know you think Britain is just a few steps away from fascism because we have laws about inciting racial hatred, but really, I think you have an overblown sense of the limitations we impose on fascist parties. Far morwe worrying, to me, is the laws preventing demonstrations in Parliament square without prior written permisson from the Police. Now that is worrying. That we don't allow people to call for the death and destruction of ethnic minorities within our country really doesn't worry me.

At least things have loosened-up some, perhaps you will get a leader that will stand-up to the EU and will support free-speech completely some day.
Nothing helps those groups & their messages more than legitimizing them with laws that are supposed to "limit" them.

[DanaC]

At least things have loosened-up some, perhaps you will get a leader that will stand-up to the EU and will support free-speech completely some day.
Nothing helps those groups & their messages more than legitimizing them with laws that are supposed to "limit" them.

Things haven't loosened up. This is how it's been for years. I don't want a leader who will 'stand up to the EU', frankly, we've had enough anti-Euro politics in the UK in recent years.

As to Europe's 'anti-free speech' laws. I fully understand why some European nations would seek to make it illegal to use nazi salutes or propogate nazi propaganda. There are still many, many people across Europe whose lives were affected by real fascism. Not the stuff you're pointing at Rk, but the real fucking deal that led to the slaughtering of millions.

Originally Posted by DanaC

Things haven't loosened up. This is how it's been for years. I don't want a leader who will 'stand up to the EU', frankly, we've had enough anti-Euro politics in the UK in recent years.

As to Europe's 'anti-free speech' laws. I fully understand why some European nations would seek to make it illegal to use nazi salutes or propogate nazi propaganda. There are still many, many people across Europe whose lives were affected by real fascism. Not the stuff you're pointing at Rk, but the real fucking deal that led to the slaughtering of millions.

Which is illegal in the US. Inciting to do harm is not speech it is assault, a clear distinction.
You would think if they hated it so much they would want to avoid becoming that above all.
Once you adopt a tactic, that is what you are.
"We hate Nazis... let's be just like them!" yeah, makes perfect sense.

[DanaC]

Nothing helps those groups & their messages more than legitimizing them with laws that are supposed to "limit" them.

Really? That wasn't what allowed them to take hold in Germany. They had the freedom to print what they wanted, about whom they wished, and they used that to prepare the ground well.

Nothing helps these groups more than the sheer complacency of people who think they wouldn't/couldn't gain power again.

[DanaC]

You would think if they hated it so much they would want to avoid becoming that above all.
Once you adopt a tactic, that is what you are.

You are oversimplifying a complex issue.

"We hate Nazis... let's be just like them!" yeah, makes perfect sense.

Yeah, I must have missed the part where we set up death camps and exterminated 6 and a half million Jews, not to mention assorted Gypsies, Mental patients, disabled children, communist party members and Trade Unionists.

Thankfully we all can look to America where freedom is enshrined in law and everybody's civil liberties are adequately protected.

Originally Posted by DanaC

You are oversimplifying a complex issue.



Yeah, I must have missed the part where we set up death camps and exterminated 6 and a half million Jews, not to mention assorted Gypsies, Mental patients, disabled children, communist party members and Trade Unionists.

Thankfully we all can look to America where freedom is enshrined in law and everybody's civil liberties are adequately protected.

I did not say Nazi, I said Fascist.
Our freedom of speech is a damn-sight better protected than places where you can't speak your mind about race.
That IS Fascism's first step.
Your tactics are who you are. Why you do it does not matter.

[piercehawkeye45]

The country that is more susceptible to propaganda, unquestions orders, and is blindly nationalistic will be the one that will go to fascism.

I doubt Europe will go to fascism because a big event is needed. In Germany it was the great depression, WWI, and Hitler's "war on terror" that gave him so much power and support.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

In other words, no visible basis for your suppositions, and too lazy to get one? That's how it looks from here, Bruce. If you're a good man, you can deliver. If you're not, you'll refuse to.

My straight answer is my third paragraph.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

There's libertarian democracy, and then there's everything else, Bruce.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Such enemies of humankind should be hunted down and converted permanently or shot.
When the last dictator is strangled on the guts of the last chief of secret police, how much oppression and misery will have fled the world?

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Make it clear. Elucidate: I'd like to see why you're so unhappy at the prospect of a great American/human success, in despite of anything the anti-American opposition could come up with (seems all they can do is kill people and burn up stuff), that you oppose it so determinedly.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Anyway, two things are clear. First, I have a certain political perspective and certain ideas of what should be done, both of which I've spoken on. Second, you think these ideas are just awful, the political perspective astigmatic.
What is far less than clear is just why Bruce should hold any such idea or objection to mine. There seems no visible basis for Bruce's supposition.

I'm struggling to decide which is more repulsive.
1-The fact that you advocate killing any, and all, that choose a different socio-economic system for themselves... people that are no threat to you other than the failure to work to make you richer.

Or 2- Your failure to comprehend why anyone would not wish to join your Big Game Hunt. Why anyone would disagree with your desire to force your choices on the whole world and murder any who resist.

Your 'fer me or agin me' attitude is most telling.... all the fascists have had that attitude.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Again, there's libertarian democracy, and there's everything else -- never something more, always something less. The something-less is not a matter of "choosing for themselves," but is forced upon the otherwise happily democratic by coercion, the old "you bow to us and give us your money or we shoot" paradigm. There lies the true fascism, or other objectionable-ism. They're all pretty much the same thing under the skin. To accept that it was "chosen for themselves" is to believe an official opinion poll -- from a dictatorship. Hardly wise.

These are the oppressors. They are the ones to be shot instead. Funny you'd rather let them perpetrate their oppressions just so you can stay comfortable, isn't it? Destroying evil isn't murder, Bruce. You seem to be unclear on the concept of murder if that's your argument.

Destroying evil and its practitioners is a beautiful thing, Bruce, even if you haven't the eyes to see. Calling a faith in democracy, one measurable even in the blood of tyrants, "repulsive" is not the action of a wise man. It does just great for a fascist shill, though.

And wouldn't the nasties I describe be just as ready to shoot you if you didn't cooperate with them? Why, therefore, should they continue to take up space, warm the globe, and breathe up oxygen? The undemocrats are in the main a waste of carbon-14 uptake. Their shills and lackeys... well...

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Again, there's libertarian democracy, and there's everything else -- never something more, always something less. The something-less is not a matter of "choosing for themselves," but is forced upon the otherwise happily democratic by coercion, the old "you bow to us and give us your money or we shoot" paradigm. There lies the true fascism, or other objectionable-ism. They're all pretty much the same thing under the skin.

Funny how "give us your entire country or we shoot" is totally okay and nice and right, but "give us your money or we shoot" isn't.

Invading and taking over a sovereign nation, especially on a foundation of lies and misinformation, is never acceptable - just as unacceptable as ruling that nation undemocratically.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Again, there's libertarian democracy, and there's everything else

NO, there's what people choose for themselves and what you choose for them. That's all, everything else, all the fancy names, is bullshit, hype, propaganda and excuses, for you imposing your choice on everyone.